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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Smb3 enemys in smw? |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26  Posts: 55/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Thats not what i mean i mean like the fact that you can not use more than 2 and maybe some times 3 layers useing lunar magic. And if you have played smas smb3 and im sure you have youll notice in the first level that the clouds move at a diferent speed when scroling to the side and the fact that you can have water be actualy transperant and still have a back ground and in smw you have to use that damn layer 3 then pick if its a ghost house or what not or a castle and what im trying to say is it would be nice if you did not have to know f**king asm to do the realy cool stuff that i have seen alot of you guys do like telling diferent parts of a 1 layer back ground to move at diferent speeds and so on and that just realy picks me off and then i try learning asm and well ya know what it makes not a lick of since to me whats so ever at all. And then you have these high and mighty guys that will not share any detales as to how to do these things with asm and do you want to know why sooooo many people ask how to do somthing in lunar magic even though they have read the help file? Well here is why lunar magics help files read like F-ing stereo instructions and it took me i dont remember how many errors and mess ups beffor i know what the magic carp i was doing with it and well there you have it i just think an editor for smas be a realy realy cool idea. (edited by mikepjr on 04-08-04 11:26 AM) |
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BookReader Ninji Level: 25  Posts: 58/232 EXP: 86317 For next: 3303 Since: 03-15-04 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico (Land of Disenchantment) Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 2 days |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43  Posts: 101/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| I agree with Mikepjr about the limitations that LM still has, and the fact that no one wants to help anyone else even get a start on learning ASM. It would also be nice to have a Layer 4 BG, like in Yoshi's Island. But I would still stick with SMW Editing, there's a lot more to work with in SMW than there is with SMB3 Editing. (edited by Atma X on 04-08-04 04:24 PM) |
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KATW King Yoshi "If you stare at something long enough, it can be funny." Level: 86  Posts: 316/3959 EXP: 6087979 For next: 54128 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 7 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| mikepjr: Quit complaining. You should be GLAD we had Lunar Magic to begin with. Sure some new features can and should be added(Insert glare in Fu's direction), but figuring things out takes time, and effort. So if you arent going to at least try and learn how to actually do these things, then quit complaining and wait patiently. In the meantime, fix up your grammar, its scaring me.  |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 53/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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I don't think Lunar Magic needs anything. What do you guys base your ideas for new stuff to add to Lunar Magic? No other editor edits a game the way Lunar Magic does, so to say this is missing features its out right greedy. Just because you can't do something to SMW without point and click doesn't mean it should be a feature. How do you think SMB3 hackers feel? I've added features from SMW into SMB3 with brute force ASM hacking. SMB3 editors pale in comparison to Lunar Magic, but you don't see people constantly posting to Acmlm and/or Lincolnsoft to update their editors to add needed features, that's because these editors do all an editor should do and it's left up to the hacker themselves to go above and beyond to add new aspects to the game.I don't care how many new features are added to Lunar Magic, 90% of the SMW hacks will still suck. I've been able to make better SMB3 hacks with my own hard work and less editor work than all but maybe 2 SMW hacks out there. Why? Because the hacker makes the good hack, not the tools used to do it. So quit whining about what needs to be in Lunar Magic and get your hands dirty with a little hexadecimal  |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43 Posts: 103/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| Then maybe you'd like to help us get a good start on learning ASM. Everyone say's to code your own stuff, but how can I do any reprogramming when I don't know how to program. You might as well be telling me to speak Japanesse when all I know is English. And trust me, it would be fucking hard to learn Japanesse on my own, as is ASM. If someone will finally help me get started learning ASM, and give me a few good places (Addresses) to start coding, I would be more than happy to do a lot of reprogramming for SMW (I've got a lot of good ideas that I would love to add to SMW, and I am gladly willing to spend a lot of time to do that, but I need some help getting started, Can Someone Please Help Me Soon). All anybody has ever given me are tutorials that use a bunch of programming terms that I have no clue of what they mean (on the up side, I'm very familliar with a Hex Editor, but not when it comes to any programming at all!). (edited by Atma X on 04-09-04 01:45 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 39/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Wow. Bitterness from DahrkDaiz. Should a writer have to operate his own printing press in order to deserve to be published? Should an artist be able to make his own pastels? The musician build his own instrument? Opening up access to an artistic medium means you'll have lots of crappy people trying it out, yes, but there'll also be some damn good designers who would otherwise never be able to make a hack. There is no reason why a designer should have to know ASM/SPC/whatever hacking in order to create a good product. If it takes an inordinate amount of skill to do a simple task, then it's not unreasonable to want someone to make a process to streamline it. Just because your editors aren't that great doesn't mean that no editors should be great... I mean, if that logic prevailed, we'd still be working in 0s and 1s. Having huge access barriers to these things is a bad thing. Granted, whining for someone to make a program for you isn't the most honourable thing to do. You don't have a right to expect a program... if your work has merit, you could probably find someone who would do this stuff for you. But it's certainly okay to wish for one, and if there is one, the fact that you use one doesn't somehow make your work less valuable. This elitist "I don't need no stinking editors" arrogance is bullshit, because if people can make better hacks than you, editors or no, then that's the bottom line and they've created a better hack (although your knowledge might be valuable in a different way.) Hacks are not good because of how much dirty work you did yourself. If Mario Adventure was as well-programmed as it is but had poor level design, then it would be a crappy hack regardless. And design skills are not programming skills (though they're probably correlated.) (edited by hhallahh on 04-09-04 03:00 AM) |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26 Posts: 58/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Yeah, i know how bad my gramer is, lol. But thats the thing im an artist first and formost i would show what i have done so far but unforunetly i dont have the time or patiance to get my own web site but so far i have done some good stuff. Or at least i think i have done some good stuff. Anyhow, i have done my best to learn asm and boy howdy, the only things iv done is mess up alot of roms, so any ways thats all i have to say at the moment. | |||
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 54/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahh No, but, should the pastel paint the picture for the artist? Should the instrument play the music for the musician? That's the issue at hand. It isn't the fact that Lunar Magic is a great editor, it's the fact hat it's great and SMW hacker think more should be added because they can't do it themselves. Originally posted by hhallahh I won't lie, editors make things much easier to do and streamline, but those thing which aren't needed to do a basic hack don't have to be in an editor in my opinion. If a hacker wants something extra done and is dedicated enough, they'll learn on their own how to do it, rather than bug the programmer about adding it in as a feature. Originally posted by hhallahh My editors? I don't have editors. Unless you mean the ones I use. M3I is a great editor, in that it lets you edit levels freely. That's all it should do and that's all it's meant to do. If I wanted to edit the palette, I don't bug Lincolnsoft to update the program, I open up a hex editor and do it myself Originally posted by hhallahh I never threw the "I don't need no editor" bullshit here. I'll be the first to admit that I have to use editors. They make things much easier, but, like I said, if an editor doesn't do what I want, I don't ask the programmer to add it to his editor, I figure out how to do it myself. A better hack isn't determined by the tools used, but the hacker themselves, but, many hackers here don't seem to realize that. I don't care HOW many features Lunar Magic gets, most SMW hacks will still suck because of the designer, not the program. I think it's stupid for all these people to ask Fusoya to add features to a program, which he's already said time again that is finished and won't be updated again, and not even put it to good use by making new, innovative hacks. Originally posted by hhallahh Exactly, the hacker makes the bad hack, not the tools used. Which is why I believe that improving on Lunar Magic won't make a bit of difference, thus, people should leave Fusoya alone and be happy they got the best editor ever created already. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 40/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I don't understand what the "right" amount of editor capability is. I don't believe there is a such thing. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with lowering access barriers to design... hacking skill is like a "design tax" - it's something you have to pay, but has little to do with your actual ability to come up with a good design. Editors facilitate the translation of ideas from an author's mind to reality. Why shouldn't this translation be as easy as possible? At what point does it become "too easy"? At what point is it "too hard"? If there was a good sprite of music editor out there, hack quality would be improved tremendously. It would make "more than a bit of difference". At the moment, no one really knows how to do that stuff, which is a shame. Should whoever figures it out have sole access to the knowledge? At this point it simply becomes a moral conflict.. no one would have the responsibility to provide knowledge to the community, but the community would certainly have a right to want it, since it's really not reasonable to say, "If you want to do it, figure it out yourself." Likewise, if someone wants FuSoYa to add feature X to LM, and Fu is like, "screw you", well... no one's really in the wrong. If you know how to hack, you'll always be two steps ahead. That should be all the consolation you need, and you shouldn't have the urge to lash out at others who you don't think are trying hard enough. I'm never going to touch ASM, and hence I'll always be a spectator on the side of this community (also because I'm never going to lie to myself and say I have time to make a hack..) But this brings to mind the Warcraft 3 community, where's there's a standard editor - World Edit. Now, you could either use the fairly managable trigger system, or you can program in some script called JASS, which I guess is similar to C++ or something. But since JASS is so complex, only a handful of people can use it.. but when they do, they use it to great success, making maps that your average person could never really make. What's the result? Huge access barriers to creating a good map. You need to know JASS. What's the result of that? No one really makes maps... especially campaigns. Starcraft had a great many number of campaigns originating from its rather simple editor. But in Warcraft 3, the standards are so high that no one can do it, and hence no one does it, and the whole community kinda sucks for it. If I were a casual prospective hacker for Mario 3, Mario Adventure would've pretty much completely killed my desire to try. I could never match that, and now the standards are so high that there's no point in trying. I'll never have the technical expertise. The reason that Mario World hacking has thrived so well is not just because of the existence of Lunar Magic, but because of the fact that "good" hacks are not so far beyond what the average person can do that there's no point in trying. Granted, ASM hackers have the advantage, but it's not a *huge* advantage, and there aren't many of them that really take advantage of it. Even DW:TLC can mostly be emulated with the modern tools. But even so, it's getting more difficult to build hacks. Nowadays, you NEED custom graphics and a custom overworld to get any attention. You need more skills to have a marketable hack, but thankfully tools have become available that make it not overly difficult for the average person to do these things. But it's still an effort-consuming process. Bottom line being that godly hackers are, of course, godly, but they're also really bad for a design community, since they discourage people. Tools that (mostly) bridge this gap are pretty much a necessity to keep the community alive. The tools must be constantly updated in order to keep pace with the sophistication of the hacks. If this does not occur, then people - GOOD people - will be discouraged from trying to begin with, and it'd really suck. So if you're two steps ahead of the community by virtue of your knowledge, great.. you give people an incentive to try to catch up. But if you're twenty steps ahead, then it's not so great, because the community will basically be you and you alone. Each community has its own level, and the sophistication of the tools should be gauged by what is appropriate for that level and the survival of the community, not by the Mario 3 or Metroid or whatever level. Haha.. this kinda reminds me of a Marxist argument.. "the creators continually update the means of production.." But this kinda got me thinking, and I'm only stopping here cause it's lunch time. |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26 Posts: 60/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Well, all i know is that i wish i never started this. Anyhow, i was thinking. How can my feet smell if they dont have a nose? And when i close my mouth dose a little man come out of hideing. HU HA HA HU Oh wait, what i wanted to say is lunar magic is a good program its just the help file thats a pain. Once you understand it you can do lots with it. I just wish it could do a little more. | |||
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 57/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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I'll just finish up with this: It's not the features of an editor that makes a good hack, but how they're used. You said yourself that if Mario Adventure had poor level design, it woulda bombed. Case in point? More features will not make better hacks. The designer makes the hack, not the editor. A hack with excellent levels will outshine something with custom graphics and what not. My hack didn't set the standard. Hacks that excel do not set standards. Hacks that excel go beyond standards. The only reason SMW hacks standards are so high now us because of all Lunar Magic can do. I've asked others what they think and many agree that Lunar Magic is the best editor out and to ask for more features is greedy. Until I see many good hacks with the current Lunar Magic, I won't agree that more features will produce better hacks. I rest my case.  |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 41/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by DahrkDaiz We can agree on that, I suppose. There haven't been very many good hacks completed since Demo World, although there are certainly several in progress. (edited by hhallahh on 04-09-04 03:17 PM) |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26 Posts: 61/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Actualy i did not say that about mario adventure. Some one ealse who said that. | |||
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 58/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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er, I was talking to hhallahh, not you mikepjr  |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26 Posts: 63/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I was the last person to post and thats why thought you was talking to me. | |||
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Squash Monster New Age Retro Hippie Togateiru Fohku Kohgeki!! GRUNGE no HAMSTER otona bite Peace love and turnpike! Level: 40 Posts: 60/677 EXP: 430507 For next: 10802 Since: 03-15-04 From: Maryland (of the Country Between Canada and Mexico) Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| I'm all for adding features, but something about some of the requests in this thread make me want to try to convince FuSoYa to add a coppy of this little program I wrote while learning to read hex from fils in VB: That'd make Lunar Magic capable of editing everything in SMW, no? I'm a nice plant-creature though, so I'm going to give all the people who complain about not being tought to program a little crash course: 1) Learn basic programming. 1.1) A programming language called BASIC, apropriately enough, is a decent way to start. 1.1.1) If you can get your hands on a TI-83 calculator, use the crappy programing language it comes with. It's strangely assembly-like. 1.1.2) Get QBASIC or something if you can't find one of those. Don't be lazy, go Google it. 1.2) Learn the fundamentals. 1.2.1) Programs read from the top line of code down. 1.2.2) Programs do what they're told, in the order it runs into them. They do not always run into lines of code in order becouse some commands make the program move the location it's reading at around. 1.2.3) Programs always do what they're told. 1.2.4) Programs do exactly what they're told. 1.2.5) If you think your program isn't doing what you told it to do, you told it to do something other than what you thought you told it to do. 1.3) Get decent at some language. 1.3.1) Read the command reference that's associated with the language. 1.3.2) Practice. 1.3.2.1) I'll help you find things to practice with if you use TI-83 BASIC, becouse I've tought it so many times before. 2) Learn another language. You're learning assembly. 2.1) Pick a brand of assembly. You're picking 6502. 2.2) Read about the structure of your language of choice. That's This Thread, don't bump it. 2.3) Read the command reference of the language you picked. It's mentioned in the thread I linked. 2.4) Practice. In your case, look for something to practice on in one of the known offset locations threads that're around here somewhere. Uppon completing 2.4, you're better than me at 6502 assembly. Congrats. |
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Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 19/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by Atma X well that sucks for you if you can't do it, it's how everyone else started. before i learned 6502 ASM i had learned to draw dots on the screen in QBasic using Pset.... really, all you need to do is have some determination Originally posted by hhallahh you're fucking retared, that's what romhacking is otherwise you're just another person on a computer using an application. which i'm sorry to say almost all of you are. to call yourselves hackers...well, that's a stretch. you're just lucky to have quality people like Fusoya and BMF and the other handful of people who dont suck :p (edited by Gavin on 04-10-04 04:49 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 43/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| you're fucking retared, that's what romhacking is otherwise you're just another person on a computer using an application. which i'm sorry to say almost all of you are. to call yourselves hackers...well, that's a stretch. you're just lucky to have quality people like Fusoya and BMF and the other handful of people who dont suck :p I never said that people who used these programs were hackers, if you bothered to read my post. I called them "designers" (I might've slipped once or twice, but for the most part I didn't.) Design is what's ultimately important to a hack (and it's still a hack, even if the creator isn't a hacker.) No one should be cared to be called a "hacker" when it comes to creating a final product, because it doesn't really matter at all HOW you made that product. Get it straight, then take another pass at me if you wish. |
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Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43 Posts: 20/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahh haha, no thanks it's cool you made a valid point and i was wrong. well then, my comment not being directed at you goes for anyone else who mistakenly calls himself a hacker. |
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