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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Super Metroid Hacking owns your momma |
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Jathys Red Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 8/48 EXP: 5916 For next: 69 Since: 12-21-04 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 8 days |
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| multi-beam disabling = possible, but unnecessary... weaken the multi-beam wall jumping = I may be putting in a "fix" for this in my hack... limiting how many times you can jump off a wall bomb jumping = may be putting in a fix for that cheat as well (or making it harder to do) I tell you what I'm putting in my hack, because I do plan on making some/most of the scripts available for general use. |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35  Posts: 348/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| I guess I'm on a mission to make you aware of the problems I foresee. Even if you have only a single place that requires some 'very special' trick, extremely precise timing, or taking advantage of a bug, you are inviting disaster. It is terrible game design, and should not be done under any circumstances, even if it's not a required part of completing the game (secret areas, or such). If you want a secret area, make it difficult to reach, sure. But don't go out of your way to make it impossible for inexperienced players. That's the point I have been trying to make. Since you stated that you want to make this hack "very difficult" I can only assume reaching secret areas will be on the order of impossible. Because what level of difficulty comes after "very difficult"? That's right! "Almost impossible". |
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Waddler-D Deddorokku Level: 33  Posts: 347/442 EXP: 227132 For next: 2047 Since: 03-15-04 From: Orange Ocean, Popstar Since last post: 168 days Last activity: 123 days |
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| Parasyte, I think Bit has made it clear that he's not going to use bomb and wall jumping as means of progress in the hack... All he said was that veterans could use these to get some items like Missiles, Super Missiles, etc. earlier than you could normally... Geez, that's like been a case with the original. In FACT, you could get the normal items by these techniques. We're trying to FIX that in this hack, so that Samus won't have some powerbombs before fighting Kraid or something crazy like that, alright!? (edited by Waddler-D on 03-09-05 09:26 PM) |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 180/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Parasyte, You utterly fail at paying attention to most of my posts. And I asked you nicely to leave it at that if you had nothing to say about my remapping question. Yes, my mind does change. While I envision this hack to be difficult, it will not, read this, be difficult in the begining. it will be a gradual thing. Second, the sequence breaking skills would only be useful for getting expansions early, never important items any earlier than you are supposed to. Basically, it rewards players who can bomb jump and wall jump by getting these missles and/or super missle expansions earlier than normal. Normal meaning whenn you back track and get the Screw Attack or Speed Booster. I realize that I talk a lot when I write but I am getting fed up with you not understanding any word I say other than 'difficult' and 'sequence breaking'. No, I'm not trying to scare away players, and no, I am not trying to make this hack cheap, or extremely hard in that way. The difficulty will lie mostly in the puzzles, and even THEN that will not be every room in the game. Here and there in Areas players will be faced with puzzles that get ever more intricate as your progress. Players will have to really think about these to get through them (or at least so I hope). I want this game to frustrate people, but not because it's cheap or because someone can't wall jump and bomb jump. How many times have metroid games frustrated me? Or zelda games? Ocarina of time pissed me off grandly, yet it's still a magnificient game. That is what I am aiming for. Puzzles. Now, are you going to harrang me for this too? Are puzzles far to much for players to withstand? Are intricate puzzles too cheap? |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35 Posts: 349/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Wrong. I understand exactly what your point is. You don't understand mine. | |||
jman2050 Red Koopa Level: 19 Posts: 83/123 EXP: 33172 For next: 2605 Since: 03-21-04 Since last post: 10 days Last activity: 103 days |
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| Wait wait, why does your previous post give me the vibe that you're decrying the level design of the entire Metroid series? I recall many places in SM where near-impossible timing and precision could be used to get early items and such. Are you saying that's bad level design despite the fact that it is 100% optional and that an inexperienced player does nto have to worry himself to complete the task? Unless you're speaking in a more specific sense, perhaps saying that entire areas shouldn't be reachable ONLY by some special trick. While I agree with the fact that it shouldn't be overwhelmingly difficult (in SM, I believe the general concensus of the 'line' where harder tricks become near impossible as opposed to difficult is either bomb jumping across the water-filled room before the large room with the grapple blocks leading to the wrecked ship, or climbing Mt 'Death' without the gravity suit. Most bomb jumping and wall jumping exercises are easy enough for even inexperienced players), what is required is up to the discretion of the designer. I don't see as the all-encompassing game-breaker you are makign it out to be, though if there was some other point in your argument that you made too subtle I didn't see it, tell me. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 182/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Meh... I should never post when I'm pissed off. It's really much better when that way. Suffice it to say, parasyte, that I ask for you to wait and see before you make any judgements on my groups hack (and by group I don't mean tek). Obviously you have your doubts on the matter, so I will let my hack do the talking. Anything you have to say about my groups hack, please PM. As I have already said, this thread was supposed to be for me to get as much information as I could about the knowledge required in making the single beam thing and remapping buttons. I ask that we let this drop until I actually make a thread for my groups hack rather than just a specific problem/question thread that this is. Working with me on this hack is: Waddler-D: level design, puzzle ideas windwaker: level design, code (best case scenario) me: level design, pixel art, ideas With more than one level designer we can bounce ideas off eachother and no one person will (or should) feel totally overwhelmed by the large task of level editing well. Working against eachother, in a way, will also prove to be constructive (or so I hope). |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35 Posts: 350/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Considering that 'sequence breaking' is almost always unintentional, I would certainly call it bad game design. If they were able to go back and patch those holes, they probably would. Retro Studios is doing it, afterall. With this in mind, you have to wonder what intentional sequence breaking really is? Well, intentionally bad game design, I suppose. "Let's create this area with an intentional glitch that can be exploited to blah, blah, blah..." What?! NO! No one intentionally creates bugs unless they work for microsoft, where later fixing those bugs will earn more profit. [But that aside...] If you want to alienate inexperienced players, that's up to you. Most people get frustrated by those kinds of things. You know, that nagging so-close-yet-so-far-away feeling when you can't quite make it... Yeah. Hell, some people get frustrated just discussing it. (eh, Bit-Blade?) I wonder when ROM hackers will start thinking of their 'clients' (for lack of a better word) for a change? |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 183/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Oh, I am catering to the players, and I should thank you for making me aware of that. Not all players are very good with bomb jumping and wall jumping and I guess I took that for granted. I know super metroid very well and can sequence break the hell out of it with just those techniques. So in what way am I making this for players that can't do these two tricks well? Well, originally I had planned on trying to make a work of art that would more or less cater to players such as myself (seemed logical enough). However, I want to make a hack that people will enjoy (certainly the sequence breakers would). In the end this game is going to be entirely possible to do with hardly any places where you really need to bomb jump (once twice of maybe 3 hops 'up' isn't much to ask, and it shouldn't be very frequent, I hope). The game will be entirely doable without excessive bomb jumping and wall jumping skills, and certainly nothing ridiculous like the mock ball trick which even I can't friggin do. As I have stated two times before, the game is going to start off easy and gradually become harder. I hope to eliminate sequence breaking entirely, even though some games (like Zero Mission) actually rewarded and encouraged it (they had special ending sequences for people with very low item completion percentages, to say nothing of speed runners). I know that this may turn down a few hardcore metroid fans, but thats too damn bad. I don't want to make that kind of game for this hack (although I am dabbling with the idea of my own hack that probably will be just for me, with enough bomb and wall jumping to make you pull your hair out, not that I really expect people to play it. It would be entirely for my self). Rest assured, the hack will be friendly at least in as much that anyone will be able to play it like normal players did super. Yes, even to the fat kids will go down this slide, as you would coin it. (edited by Bit-Blade on 03-10-05 10:30 AM) |
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Jathys Red Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 9/48 EXP: 5916 For next: 69 Since: 12-21-04 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 8 days |
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| The best game that could possibly be made: It starts easy, gets harder as you get closer to the end . . . Various secret and unnecessary paths should be incredibly difficult to manuever through, providing extra bonuses to people who can find/beat those areas. Different endings is a great way of doing this. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Super Metroid Hacking owns your momma |
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