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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Super Metroid Hacking owns your momma |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 172/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| I'm working on a super metroid hack (or at least planning one. 6 people including myself are involve). Too make this hack more challenging, I could use some information (should you be willing to give it). Would it be terribly difficult to disable the combined beam function in super metroid (ie, layering on top of eachother) and map a switching beam function to the Y button (which is unused, unless I'm mistaken)? I beleive that the combining beams on top of eachother thing is too cheap. It made super metroid WAY too easy. Metroid Prime had the right idea going with that. Of course I realize that this would require SNES ASM knowledge and it may end up being incredibly difficult to do, but I would apreciate as much information on the subject as possible. While I may not be much of a programmer at all, some of the members of this project are. I am the pixel artist and one of the level designers. This hack is going to be so much fun... and very difficult (not cheaply so, but you will need all your super metroid sequence breaking techniques to get through some areas). Although there will be new graphics, this hacks main focus will be in metroid level design and item discovery. |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35  Posts: 327/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Requiring the use of glitches (of any kind) to progress is, and always will be "cheaply difficult". I sincerely hope that's not what you meant, considering 'sequence breaking' is little more than exploiting glitches. | |||
MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 1524/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| You do realize that exploiting glitches in SM is usually more difficult than playing the game normally. It's not just a matter of knowing what to do, it's being able to do it. Now there are obviously many exceptions to this analysis, such as using the crystal flash to enter the passage below Spore Spawn from the wrong direction. But I'd say making game progress depend upon glitches is just asking for trouble given that the general population who may download this will not always know about the glitches. Sequence breaking is better when it appears to be an accidental oversight. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 173/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| But I don't mean the glitches at all. Most of them I can't even do. I mean such as being skilled at wall jumping, knowing how to shinespark well, bomb jumping. Would you call those glitches? I wouldn't. Those are all I meant. And... that's all the sequence breaking I've ever been able to do. I've gotten the Power Bombs by wall jumping up red brinstar with only the charge beam and missles (it was hard as all hell). These skills are what every skilled metroid 3 player should know how to do with ease and patience. And... I want them to be essential for survival in this hack. Don't worry, though. The begining is going to have a learning curve. It won't all be insanely hard (and hopefully it will never get to the insane level. hacks that are too hard are kill joys). |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1525/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade Shine waah? |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 174/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| OMG YOU R TEH DON"T KNOW WHAT SHINESPARK IS *Links to Metroid Database* A lot of people don't seem to know the word, actually. I thought by now it would have spread. And that's an INSANELY difficult trick to pull of, so it's understandable that most people would never see that message. I did, just to verify, but only by cheating like a son of a bitch. |
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Squash Monster New Age Retro Hippie Togateiru Fohku Kohgeki!! GRUNGE no HAMSTER otona bite Peace love and turnpike! Level: 40 Posts: 537/677 EXP: 430507 For next: 10802 Since: 03-15-04 From: Maryland (of the Country Between Canada and Mexico) Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| I think most of us call them super jumps. I prefer to use "super jump" for the actual jump and "shine spark" for the recharge you can do by super jumping into a ramp. It's cool that you're going to try to make the sequence break tricks more used, but I'm a little worried -- you could very easily alienate most of your players. Personally, I can probably handle most wall jumps you could throw at me without any problem (I can't quite break into the Crateria guantlet using them though (that's the place directly up and left of the landing site)). And I can't bomb jump very high at all, even less with diagonal, and I'm still not sure the people who can horizontile bomb jump are human. Super jumping isn't hard at all, and there's no shine sparking in this game (see how much easier my definitions make this?  ). And I can mock ball, but most people can't, so don't count on that one please.And it'd be cool if you remaped the controls to be more like Prime's. I always liked Prime's beams and super missiles more than Super Metroids. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1526/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Actually, I was being facetious about the "shinespark" (blech) thing. Me and Zem decided a better name would be the Flash Charge, after almost 30 minutes of debate, a few months ago. You can adopt the term if you want to. | |||
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 175/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| And a battle of fierce my opinion is better than yours ensues! Eh, I'll just stick to what I know. No harm in sticking with the 'official' name, anyway. Squash Monster: We are going to try to moderate the difficulty of this hack. While it is true that many parts will require sequence breaking techniques, they will not (or should not) be so prevalant in the begining of the game. Hopefully no exceedingly tricky, blind or annoying shinesparks will be used. Bomb jumping isn't all that hard if you can manage to be patient with it *coughsavestatescough*. If you have ever tried to climb up the shaft in red brinstar before you get the ice beam or high jump boots, you'll know what hard is. I may use something at most that difficult for an item to be gotten, but I won't make you go the extra mile just to progress. Besides, wall jumping like the Red Brinstar to Power Bomb route are so insanely hard most people would just give up early. I got curious to see if I could do it, and, well... it took me about 45 minutes of trial and error and avoiding the zipper thingies that float mindlessly back and forth. Diagonal bomb jumping isn't really all so possible in this game. Yeah, but I would need to have quite a lot done to the rom. jman answered a lot of my 'is this possible' questions. So far I know: To disable beam combinations all I need to do is find out what code uses it and disable it. I would need to change the byte that forcefully layers new weapon beams over eachotherso that it doesn't. Furthermore, I would need to change part of the menu code in the game so that it would only allow you to highlight one beam every time. It's not so much altering the code to make sure the engine thinks its not possible to use more than one beam at a time as much as it is just preventing the cues that the game uses itself to 'combine' them. There are a few problems, though. The Charge Beam would have to be an exception to the rule, something you either wouldn't be able to turn off, or to somehow make this beam count as a seperate item type entirely (which would actually help). Then there is the problem of button mapping. Every single button on the snes pad is in use. I think I may change one of the L or R buttons (the one that points your gun to the lower right/left) as the opposite button to that is MUCH more useful, whereas this one would only really be needed for shooting things so short that kneel level shots won't rach them or if they are in a lower posistion to you. Perhaps I could disable the Y button (boost) in favor of having an autorun like metroid fusion did (and possibly edit the run time until you get speed boostery enough to break speed blocks). I would like to avoid having the 'switch beam' function not be added on to the select subweapon button (select). Having too many options to cycle through would likely be VERY frustrating (especially with no 'turn back' button). One reason I want only one beam (minus charge beam) to be in use at any one time is that it will make the game much more strategic. Enemies can be set to have varying degrees of resistance to each of the beams, including invulnerabilities. The wave beam is also useful and hindersome in some areas because it can go through walls. The ice beam... I don't even really need to explain why that's useful. Of course, if the beam problem ends up not being able to have it's own button (being tacked on to the weapon/item select button cycle doesn't appeal to me...) I may as well not even do it. Switching beams shouldn't have to be a pain in the ass. But... who knows. I would at least give it a playthough and see how hindering it really is. Hopefully I can get some mroe information before windwaker begins work on this. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 3506/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade This especially concerns me. You make it sound as if save states will be required to do it. Any game that requires use of save states can be considered too difficult, and relying on features (or even moreso bugs) of the emulator is always a bad idea. You should always try to develop your hacks to be 100% playable on real hardware. |
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jman2050 Red Koopa Level: 19 Posts: 82/123 EXP: 33172 For next: 2605 Since: 03-21-04 Since last post: 10 days Last activity: 103 days |
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| Rule of thumb: if you need more than the occasional flurry of save states to complete a game, it's too hard. No need to make moves like the wall jump and bomb jump required, that's one of the trends I'm really starting to hate in SM hacks. If you want people to employ the wall jump and bomb jump, make it optional, unless you make it VERY CLEAR when you play the hack that they need to know common sequence breaking techniques. And for the record, I'm even considering removing the wall jump and bomb jump from my hack, if only for a temporary time... |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 176/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Oi... you guys worry too much. Bomb jumping will only really be of advantage to you if you wish to grab those last extra missles early. You guys must not be reading my posts. I said 1) There was going be a learning curve in the begning and things will gradullay get harder and 2)although this wasn't directly stated, it was never my intention to have save states be a requirement for some parts of the hack. Sure, they might HELP but you should well be able to handle the game normally wihtout too much trouble. I yes. I also said I wasn't rely on BUGS but actual abilities that the programers gave samus. Bomb jumping isn't a bug, nor is shinesparking or wall jumping. Any skilled super metroid player should be well familiar with these. |
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Squash Monster New Age Retro Hippie Togateiru Fohku Kohgeki!! GRUNGE no HAMSTER otona bite Peace love and turnpike! Level: 40 Posts: 538/677 EXP: 430507 For next: 10802 Since: 03-15-04 From: Maryland (of the Country Between Canada and Mexico) Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| On the topic of changing the button layout -- I actually planned the mapping out quite some time ago. I never actually did it because the hack would've been way beyond my level. New layout -- B -- Fire beam A -- Jump X -- Switch beam -- Hold X and press a direction to switch to one of the other beams. Hold X and let go to switch to normal beam. Hold X and press L to switch to grapple beam. Y -- Fire missile/Fire super missile(when beam is charged)/Power bomb(when ball) L -- Hold still (to aim) R -- Run (though honestly, I think you should make it automatic like in the GBA ones) Select -- Turn on/off X-Ray scope Start -- Menu There's lots of these that you could re-arange or use for different things too: L and R could both be used for aim if you auto-ran, select could be used for all manner of things if you ditched the crappy scope (or made it switch like a beam). If you didn't want to use the charge combo version of super missiles, you could use any of the freed up buttons to fire them. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1528/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| I don't like the idea of holding X and then pushing a direction to switch beams, (though I am opposed to single beams in general), for how are you supposed to switch beams while moving then? One of the great things about super metroid is that it is very unrestrictive of one action restricting another, except in obvious cases. If you all are looking for features that are found in Fusion or Zero Mission, such as the auto run, why not just hack those games? In fact, according to Jigglysaint, I think they're actually much easier to hack, you'd just need to make an editor. As far as using singleton beams, it would actually make the game less strategic. Say you design a puzzle that requires ice + wave combo, but which plasma would ruin if you added it. Stuff like that. You couldn't so something like that if you restricted to just one beam. In addition, bosses HP would have to be scaled down b/c the only beam that does anything near significant damage on its own is the Plasma beam. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 177/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| After a little investigation I found that B is run, A is jump, Y is item cancel and X is shoot. I happen to like the a lot of the features in metroid fusion, but I don't necesarilly want to hack it (is there even an editor? level editing in hex sounds like a pain. No, I am not hardcore enough to want to deal with that). I am a pixel artist, not a programmer. Yes... one would definitely need an editor. They speed up the hacking process greatly. Yes, the wave freeze could be a problem, but you know what? I don't have to design a single puzzle that would require it, so in the end that brings it right back down to where I wanted it. You are right about the boss hp, though. It would more than likely need to be toned down to some degree. And since when do you battle bosses with just your beams anyway? I've almost always had a use for my missles and super missles. So here's how it's going to play out. Item cancel is going to get the shaft. It's Y button will be remapped to cycling through the beams (as well as all that other fun stuff). Autorun doesn't even need to be added at all. The only reason I considered it at all is because it's a convenient way to free up a button. The metroid fusion team didn't really have much of a choice, they had to think of SOME way to make the game have all these features with less buttons than super metroid had. |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35 Posts: 330/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade NEVER create your hacks (or homebrews) specifically for emulators. Always strive to get your creations working properly on actual hardware. And don't require BS like savestates that can't be done on hardware. |
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KP9000 Flurry Level: 27  Posts: 201/261 EXP: 102741 For next: 13418 Since: 03-18-04 From: Wherever you saw me last... Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| Heh, this will be good competition with MY Super Metroid group hack on TEK! Of course, I will help you out with some things every now and then when you ask. If you are a member of TEK, come and join! Anyways, the bomb jump took me all of 5 mins to master. Another 5 mins and I figured out how to time my bombs right and gain altitude 4 times as fast as the original fashion! If you need a .zmv of it being performed, PM me here or on TEK. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 178/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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Originally posted by ParasyteOriginally posted by Bit-Blade You are TOTALLY missing the bloody point, Parasyte. That's exactly what I'm striving to avoid. No savestate happy hack is fun, no insanely cheap level design where you make one little mistake and you're fucked is fun. I apologize if in my posts I have made it so easy to misinterpret my words, but it almost seems as if you are intentionally misunderstanding me. Are my posts that ambigious? And KP, if you mean triple bomb jump (fall and rise and fall and rise) I figured that one out on my own long ago. It is VERY hard, though. One big mistake in bomb placement and down you go. One final point. This thread was primarily supposed to be for people that cared to help give me a boost in effecting these ASM changes (among other things). So far all I have gotten are opinions about it, and comments of the hack itself. Save your concerns for when I make a thread about the hack itself (yes, I know the thread title is misleading) instead of maligning the idea of my hack with your misgivings. Most of you have yet to even hear the theme of this hack yet (which I am sure Parasyte disagrees with XD). (edited by Bit-Blade on 03-03-05 07:18 PM) |
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Black Lord Level: 34 Posts: 221/453 EXP: 235639 For next: 18012 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nebraska, what's a Nebraska Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade I don't know what's about misunderstanding... but that's a bit misleading there. If you make a Metroid hack... don't just throw some random pile together. Actually take some time and do some decent work on it. I have one laying around here somewhere, and even tho I'm no where near done, it has loads of potential. (edited by Black Lord on 03-03-05 08:19 PM) |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 179/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| There is a difference between talking about super metroid and tlaking about ones hack. I was depending on that to be obvious enough. I was more answering some of squash monsters general questions right there, really. I will state this then as explicitly as I can. Large amounts of bomb jumping will in no way be necesary. There will be areas where it is entirely possible, yes, but the ONLY thing bomb jumping would be needed for is getting a head start on these items. In short, I will be lightly rewarding those that can bomb jump by having a few energy tanks and differing expansions up in places you can't normally reach. Think of that as an early start to getting some items you would be able to get with space jump, anyway. EDIT: Ha, indeed! I have learned to recognize what LC_LZ5 compression graphics look like in hex. I have (almost) zeroed in on exactly where and what the cratera tileset are hidden. The offset for these tiles is around $1D4900-1D5000 (large margin of error, there. The correct offset seems to be more around $1D4950)  (edited by Bit-Blade on 03-04-05 01:51 AM) (edited by Bit-Blade on 03-04-05 01:51 AM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Super Metroid Hacking owns your momma |
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