Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - It takes root again
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MathOnNapkins
Posts: 1375/2189 |
Heh, reminds me of a time I was in the car with my exgirlfriend's Jewish grandfather. He's a bit senial, so he says whatever's on his mind. I told him I was German when he asked, and he got a little mad, but I explained I had been in America as a family for over 150 years, so my family had nothing to do with all that in Europe. He just said "A German's a German." I wasn't really hurt, but it makes you wonder just how much hatred the Holocaust generated in the Jewish population. Though, of course, not a hatred to rival Hitler's.
edit/addition: Originally posted by Ailure...it's one of thoose moments I wonder how much rosetinted glasses CNN use.
The point, Ailure, is that I trust CNN no more than what some random guy says on a message board. For your information I only watch stuff like that maybe once a week for an hour just to get a general idea of what is happening in the world. I would read more online news if I cared enough to, but I don't. Sometimes I watch FST = Free Speech TV which has all kinds of exposes on stuff you normally don't see in the mainstream news. For example, a story on how the US military could have prevented a massacre of ex Talibans but instead gave them up to the mercy of Afghani nationals. (Old story, I know.) But why should I trust that news source just b/c it is different? Why should I trust X newspaper b/c it is different. People like to lie if it benefits them. Like they say, any story has two sides to tell.
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Darth Coby
Posts: 1095/1371 |
Well, err, I agreed to the "Jews should stop playing the victim". I mean, your ancestors were killed 60 years ago! YOU DON'T FEEL THAT. And we already repaid you guys and stuff, it's been 60 years, anyone bitching about something that happened to their race 60 years ago should get shot because of ignorance.
BTW, no offense. |
Arwon
Posts: 253/506 |
Can I just point out that there are fascist-leaning groups other than Nazis and that just because Nazisim in particular isn't coming back doesn't mean that there's nothing to worry about with the fascists in general? |
The SomerZ
Posts: 627/862 |
Originally posted by Andrew
Right now, though, no core country (i.e., the US, Western European countries) aside from the U.S. has a leader who can really be considered an extremist by current standards.
Silvio Berlusconi? And J |
Andrew
Posts: 39/48 |
Actually, if he's right, he'll be screaming at us, except we won't be able to hear him, because he'll be dead. |
more than meets the i
Posts: 6/21 |
Well the news just pretty much hypes up every story so that you'll be interested or scared enough to read it. So the basic spine of it may be true, but they exaggerate plenty.
People who deny the holocaust are just plain ignorant. Enough said. I can't say I live in Europe or anything but if this huge nationalistic uprising even were to occur-- I'm sure I'd have heard something about it by now. There are ignorant people wherever you go. In America you have the "hardcore" skinheads who just need a reason to hate. There are a handful at my school-- they're just pathetic teens who are bored of the system and need a scapegoat for their anger. There's always ignorant people-- I'm sure it's not too much to be alarmed about.
Or who knows.. maybe in 20 years you'll be laughing at us. The world is crazy like that sometimes. |
Ran-chan
Posts: 7090/12781 |
Don |
Ailure
Posts: 7536/11162 |
Originally posted by MathOnNapkins
Ziff, your view of the world is scary. You're what, 17? Where do you get all your information from? You like to sound like a man of the world, and I'm sure you're very intelligent, but WHERE do you get your information from? I'm not saying you're being lied to, but time and time again I see you post stuff that is out of the range of common knowledge, but without anywhere to go to verify it. To me it sounds like you have a political confidant who mentors you, or maybe an underground news source.
...it's one of thoose moments I wonder how much rosetinted glasses CNN use.
Yes, i'm not too fond of them myself. CNN get's too propganda like for a regular European to even stand it. :\
Newspapers talk about the "new nazis" quite alot around here, but yet the anti-nazism is alot higher. I'm not worried. 
People do have to try reading diffrent newspapers all over the world, I hardly trust any source to 100% anymore. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 2724/5458 |
In relation to a party that has openly praised Hitler and made various other nasty comments...Well, I think it is fair to say that they aren't nice little socialists. National Socialists, maybe. But not any sort of real left-winged ideologists. |
Andrew
Posts: 37/48 |
Okay, and I've seen Zell Miller of the United States Democratic Party. He is hardly representative of the party. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 2715/5458 |
The majority of it comes from Canadian news agencies, friends who live in other nations and the politicians of Canada whom I converse with regularly.
Andrew, very few parties go balls out "let's kill blacks and Jews!" of course they're going to sugar coat it. I've heard many BNP speeches about the evils of non-British immigrants. I've spoken to members who are hardly human, etc. |
MathOnNapkins
Posts: 1355/2189 |
Ziff, your view of the world is scary. You're what, 17? Where do you get all your information from? You like to sound like a man of the world, and I'm sure you're very intelligent, but WHERE do you get your information from? I'm not saying you're being lied to, but time and time again I see you post stuff that is out of the range of common knowledge, but without anywhere to go to verify it. To me it sounds like you have a political confidant who mentors you, or maybe an underground news source.
I sometimes look at underground news coverage, but like all media I still get the feeling my view are being manipulated. Everyone has a slant and no one's a saint. That's mainly why I don't read much news anymore, b/c I can't really verify much for myself. |
Andrew
Posts: 35/48 |
The Nazis were a radical minority group that seized power due to extenuating circumstances. And, for your information, since you seem to think I'm some dull-witted Aryan who doesn't give a shit, I'm a Russian Jew. My grandmother's entire family was slaughtered by Stalin and my grandfather was a Colonel in the Soviet army.
Oh, and these BNP folk sound like just TERRIBLE people.
"We embrace and cherish the native cultural diversity within the British Isles and wish to extend the concept of democracy to the lowest possible level, where those that are affected by a decision are the ones who influence and make the decision."
Hey, that sounds kind of like... socialism! Oh, you know those leftist Nazis... wait, what, you don't? Me either.
"Increasingly our people are facing denial of service provision, failure to secure business contracts as well as poor job prospects as both reverse discrimination excludes our people from the school room, workplace and boardroom. A key role of the British National Party is to provide legal advice and support to victims of repression and those denied their fundamental civil rights."
Man, you can almost read in the undercurrents of genocide. No, wait, no you can't.
Source: http://www.bnp.org.uk/mission.htm
It really doesn't even look like these guys are such extremists.
Save your outrage, Ziff, for the people who are actually hurting someone, not the percieved slights to your heritage that you see. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 2709/5458 |
Fine, ignore the current trends in Europe. Nationalist groups are growing. If this doesn't frighten you, then you're a member. The problem is that these sorts of fundamentalists are growing in mainstream political power, especially in the United States, Australia, Britain and Germany. You may not see the growth of fascism as a thing to be afraid of, I don't know why you wouldn't. Perhaps you aren't part of a minority that is going to be first in line to be blamed for the world's woes. Lined up and shot. I know that I am, and I know that I'm vastly afraid for my brothers and sisters and what could happen to us if this ever occurs in force again. The simple fact that as fascist are gaining face in the realm of politics is a problem, deny as you will. Next up is the issue of the re-strengthening of hyper-conservativism and religious fundamentalism. That is another frightening concept. Again, I know what alot of Conservatives would think of my family. And I know that the majority of religious fundamentalists that gain precident in the US, Britain, and Canada aren't too chill with my religion. Perhaps I'm irrational in the fact that I'm at threat with the re-emerging fascist powers and the re-emerging power of supremist movements. I don't know what sort of bubble you live in, but if that'll protect me, I'd gladly join you.
The simple fact that 12% of anyone denies the Holocaust is frightening. In my eyes, complicity to bigotry and hate is bigotry and hate. I cannot see how you are not alarmed by this statistic. Given that Italy is a vastly anti-semetic nation is not a surprising thing, but the denial of the Holocaust, where they had a concentration camp in their land and it was vastly known about its existence...That is frightening. For anyone to deny the largest slaughter ever is simply scary. It means that there is a growing apathy towards the past, and as Apple states, people aren't afraid. With every passing generation a trend is going to emerge until it spills over. "What is the Holocaust?" "Did it even happen?" "Why should I care?". I see these questions being raised everyday. I have met Holocaust deniers. They are on the fringe of things politically, but given where these people stand in society (prominent community members and doctors and wealthy people (as well as a lot of really armed-to-the-teeth-with-illegal-weapons poor people)) I think fear is justified in this matter. Anybody who opposes racism and bigotry should make a non-passive voice about it. For too long have I seen activists act passive on many issues.
Of course your government isn't being taken over by white supremist groups. It doesn't need to. There is a vastly wretched infrastructure already in place that allows for these fuckwits to get a voice. The NRA (not like what Moore says, but it is an organization that doesn't mind racism in its ranks), various corporations, governors of southern states (and lots of northern ones too), fundamentalist lobbyists, lobbyists for white supremist groups, lobbyists attempting to restrict the rights of others. If these morons weren't enough, the actual current administration might as well be openly bigoted. Mandatory minimum sentencing is just one action. Detention centres outside of the constructs of the Geneva Accord. I remember a few months ago, using NAFTA a couple of corporations pushed through legislation in the US about illegal alien workers. Basically, the US can't bust the ones that are working for certain companies if they are housed permanently by the company. But they aren't paid minimum wage, and they aren't given allowance to all human rights. In fact they aren't protected and are at the will of the company. It is frightening, and chances are you've never heard of this. Luckily for the corporations that signed on (I don't know which ones, but they're generally in Cali and other border states) they're now protected by NAFTA, which allows for secret closed doors decision by an international committee of non-government entities to make legally binding decisions. Why the hell would fucking fascists need to rise up and take a government that is already controlled by whites, bigots and companies that don't give a fuck? They don't.
Sorry about the misreading there, but guess what...I'm a little emotional about this given that I know of family members that were starved by the Soviets, killed in Kosovo and then shot by the NAZIs. But environmental conditions do not lead to the election or seizure of control of extremist factions in all cases. They are always the claimant cause, but other incidents (I'm trying to think of one right now, I know it, but it is slipping my mind).
"If there's one thing that you need to get through your thick fucking skull, it's that the minority has no power. Look at America. Who has the power? White people. There are good-sized minorities of Asians, blacks, and Hispanics, but look how many federal government positions all of them hold between them. Not many. And they're not even extremists, which means that the government and the people are actually more open to what they want to get accomplished."
And I'm sure if Ukrainians and Jews and Roma and Russians and other minorities had power in Germany, then we wouldn't have seen what happened. Guess who had the power in Germany. GUESS! I dare you!
"When you stop having the world view of a six-year-old, you come back and we'll talk."
No, I have the world view of someone who has seen the effects of suffering in all its horror (have you ever met an old woman who was forced to endure the tortures of Mengele? I have). I don't know why you think fear of fascism and the rise of mainstream bigotry is something only a six year old would fear. But hey, go for it. |
Andrew
Posts: 32/48 |
Originally posted by Ziffski
No, it isn't getting alarmed over nothing. It is being afraid of a remergence of fascism. It is the showing of the time. It shows that people are growing apathetic to the Holocaust and the evils that were wrought in those camps. Holocaust belittling is as bad as denial. If you wish to say "It's okay to believe it never happened. Those are just 6 million lies to one person" then you're a tool.
So, environmental conditions allow for genocide? Interesting. You're a tool.
As much as it's charming that your most compelling argument is that I'm a tool, you seem to not be detecting the inherent flaw in what you say. That is, there's no re-emergance of fascism. For one, fascism has existed without any break ever since it was created. For another, these 12% aren't all members of the BNP. There were plenty of people, Americans included, who during WWII and after didn't believe that the concentration camps existed or the holocaust happened. That number is not particularly on the rise. Anti-Semitism has existed throughout history. The fact that some Italians remain anti-Semitic is not surprising, considering that Italy was a fascist nation in the time of WWII, and moreover that Italy is heavily Catholic (see: Jesus "killed by the Jews"').
Grey makes an excellent point with his slavery example. The fact that we're not all, "OMG! SLAVERY! WORST THING EVAR!" anymore is something that's happened as time has passed. Granted, no one believes that slavery didn't happen, but that's irrelevant. The fact is, we as a society are not freaking out over the fact that there was slavery. Shockingly, somehow I haven't seen even the most right-wing senators proposing a bill to re-enslave the black people. The KKK still exists. Groups like them will always exist. The BNP is such a group. Am I afraid of the Klan taking over Washington and dictating American policy? No, because that's a really stupid fear to have. Moreover, America is not without its fair share of fascists, neo-nazis, and other such wonderful people. Somehow, though, our government isn't being taken over by any of these radical extremist groups, despite racism still being heavily present in many places across America.
This principle holds true with the BNP. Wow, there's a nationalist party in Britain? And their membership is growing? Big fuckin' deal. There is no re-emergence of fascism. There have always been fascists. There will always be fascists. They are a very small minority of people who are viewed as: A, completely fucking batshit; and B, eternally politically tainted because they make people remember Hitler.
Oh, and you have to learn to read. Environmental conditions allow for the rise of extremist leaders who may or may not initiate genocide of a people that they have chosen to blame for the country's quandary. If you think that Germany was all fine and dandy when Hitler came to power and they decided to kill the Jews on a whim, you've got another thing coming to you. For the most part, there are only three conditions that allow for a fascist government to come to power: degraded conditions that open the door for charismatic leaders who can designate a goat for the country's problems, the passing of a monarchy to a new king or queen who has embraced fascist ideals, or a military coup. However, in a country where the military is under stable leadership, state leaders are decided by elections, and the standard of living is high, there is very little in the way of conditions that would be favorable to the emergence of fascism.
If there's one thing that you need to get through your thick fucking skull, it's that the minority has no power. Look at America. Who has the power? White people. There are good-sized minorities of Asians, blacks, and Hispanics, but look how many federal government positions all of them hold between them. Not many. And they're not even extremists, which means that the government and the people are actually more open to what they want to get accomplished.
Ziff, when Britain invades Poland and opens its first concentration camp, you can feel free to call me a tool all you want. Until then, frankly you're acting like an idiotic reactionary. You're extraordinarily naive about the workings of the world -- it's like you expect us to live in Super Happy Funtime Land where everyone believes in Doing The Right Thing and there are no crazy people, no hateful people, no racists. The world is not like this. When you stop having the world view of a six-year-old, you come back and we'll talk. |
MathOnNapkins
Posts: 1353/2189 |
I get the feeling, talking to older folks sometimes, that maybe lingering animosity towards Jews in the older generation is merely swept under the rug, hidden from plain view. Older folks tend to take surveys more than other age groups. I think that might be part of the reason you see these results. Hell, I can tell that my own grandparents don't have warm feelings towards Blacks or Jews, but they will still put up with them. |
Grey the Stampede
Posts: 1643/3770 |
Well, apathy comes with pretty much every historical condition...
People are apathetic to the deaths of John F. Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln nowadays, accepting them as nothing more than a part of history. Most people don't even know who James A. Garfield is. And what about all the people who died in the rise and fall of the Roman Empire?
Ziff, I'm afraid of facism reemerging too, but you can't get alarmed by apathy toward the holocaust among a percentage of the population. Your children's children's children will more than likely be filled to the brim with apathy toward it. There is no avoiding it, at all, in any way whatsoever.
That doesn't mean you can't hate people for being apathetic towards something we still have veterans and survivors of around now, but when all of those people die off, that's just more people contributing to the end of the pain and sadness. Suffice it to say, the easiest way to not feel pain by thinking of something is to not think of it, and the easiest way to not think of something is to forget about it, and the easiest way to forget about something is to not have constant reminders everywhere that it happened.
The average high school student is indifferent to the American slavery movement, because there are no more freedmen or women alive today. That doesn't mean we can't forget it happened or that our indifference will lead to it happening again, it's just another note in our mind: Slavery was bad. Got it.
It'll be the same way with the Holocaust. Genocide was bad. Got it.
Like I said, the issue isn't believing the holocaust happened or not. Those people are probably the same kinds of people who think America faked the moon landing. The issue is with the current hatred towards jews who are being wrongfully discriminated and who are being wrongfully portrayed as "acting the victim". Nobody deserves that kind of treatment. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 2704/5458 |
No, it isn't getting alarmed over nothing. It is being afraid of a remergence of fascism. It is the showing of the time. It shows that people are growing apathetic to the Holocaust and the evils that were wrought in those camps. Holocaust belittling is as bad as denial. If you wish to say "It's okay to believe it never happened. Those are just 6 million lies to one person" then you're a tool.
So, environmental conditions allow for genocide? Interesting. You're a tool. |
Andrew
Posts: 29/48 |
The fact of the matter is, even if it's 12%, being alarmed by even that number is just getting excited over nothing. It's sort of like if all the black people in America decided that all the white people must die, so they tried to do the Hitler thing and get some sort of black Hilter-type into the presidency and everything to propagate this agenda. It wouldn't work, because all the rest of the country (except, I guess, for some of the Hispanics) believe strongly that we should not kill all the white people. Also, World War II was caused by the treaty of Versailles, more or less. Conditions in Germany were shit, and so the Nazi Party was able to make a goat out of the Jews. On the other hand, conditions in England are not exactly something to complain about. They're not exactly wallpapering with marks here. |
Apple
Posts: 582/594 |
I remember hearing something about this in 1997. I can see it still going on.... I don't understand how someone can look at the holocaust and say it never happened but I guess its both ingorance and how you were taught. (Theres thousands of massacres in history people deny from happening).
I believe the Holocaust did happen but I hate the way its taught. American history books were written by pussies. If we were given more than a paragraph saying "From 1933-1945 Nazi's killed 12 million jews", I'm sure it would of sunk in to people's skull what actually happened. Than again, we arn't taught shit about Nazi's or Hitler. Even though hes been long dead and evil, its still deemed wrong to critcize him in history books. I love my country. I'm not sure how other countries are taught it, but if its anything similar to all the history textbooks I have had through out my school life so far, I can understand why people don't take it serious or even believe in it. Also. 12 Million died in the Holocaust. 5-6 million of which were not Jewish. Maybe we should start being taught that....
Meh.
12% isn't as much you would like to believe. Not all 60 million took the poll. Only 12% that did deny the holocaust. Realisitically, at the most, there is maybe 2 million people taking the poll. 12% of 2mil is 240,000. So all you know is that at least 0.4% denies the holocaust. Who took the poll mainly? Young Adults? Old people? Men? Women?
They just take enough results and throw shit together with out giving demographics to fear people. |
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