Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - The sad state of the rom hacking community
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Heran_Bago
Posts: 86/91 |
Originally posted by HyperHacker
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
Originally posted by Lenophis
The quality of hacks is also a cause of the problem. For example, this hack titled "Extreem Manseckz," is a hack of some Sonic game for GBA. The author was like "dude, it's a GBA hack. How many others have done that? Love me for it." Not helping at all... 
While your sentiment may very well be true I think it's a bit unfair to condemn this hack on the basis of it's content alone. Haven't you ever heard of a sense of humor? The second ANY hack goes into a "dirty humor" direction it is automatically considered to be a terrible hack, a waste of time, and something that all romhackers should be ashamed of. I think that people should lighten up on this. Hacks don't have to be serious all the time. It's true that many of those dirty hacks are just simple graphical changes (I-Mockery, anyone?) but that by no means means that every hack that has a dirty or humorous theme to it is going to be shit. And sorry for going off topic. This is a romhacking bias that gets on my nerves.
Not to mention, that was actually a pretty good hack despite its immature content. Few hacks I know of have sound changes. Most 'dirty humour' hacks are only like 5 minutes worth of effort (LOL I drew a penis on Mario's standing still frame), while this was a rather extensive one. Plus, there aren't many GBA hacks to begin with.  Just because you don't agree with a hack's content doesn't mean it's not a good hack. ... They're still good hacks, just not my style.
I take credit for Sonic Advance 3: Extreem Manseckz.
The humor is stupid. REALLY stupid. So stupid that it's funny just to laugh at the stupidity. But don't worry about that.
What I'm glad some people have noticed, is that this is a fairly comprehensive hack of a GBA game. Content aside, it is one of the only times one can say "fairly comprehensive hack of a GBA game." This is an example of something hurting the community, the lack of volume of comprehensive hacks. Why is it that one of the most involving GBA hacks has "Mangrip" on the titlescreen? Shouldn't GBA hacking be better than this? SA3:EM is inately crappy, but it is also a music(minor voices), text, graphics, palletes, and audio hack of a GBA game. It makes me a little sad that it's one of the best GBA hacks out there. |
LocalH
Posts: 41/46 |
We need more hacking crews, simple as that. ROM hacking doesn't have to be limited to just crews, and not every crew will make good hacks. I take inspiration from the C64 demoscene - there were (and are) both solo coders and democrews. Lots of the early demos (up until about 1992-3) are "lame" by todays standards, but nonetheless someone put effort into it. Just like in the demo scene, you'll have shitty hacks and awesome hacks, and then average hacks that aren't anything special, but that also don't suck ass.
If anyone's wanting to learn ASM, coding demos is a good way to get started. You get to learn how to bring up the machine from scratch (if the system requires any initialization, that is) and work with the low-level hardware registers. I, myself, am currently studying the Genesis - I've already written code that won't properly run on any emulators (I change the backdrop mid-scanline, and no emulator supports that currently).
The C64 demoscene was borne from the cracking scene - crackers would add an intro to the beginning of cracked games. As the crack intros got more and more lavish, you had people who enjoyed the intros more than the games they were attached to, and who also decided to expand the intro into it's own entity, and thus begat the demoscene. We don't necessarily have to start from 'crack' intros (especially since there's not much 'cracking' anymore, especially on consoles), but I think that a demoscene would enhance the skills of those who would participate. The only thing is, you have to choose a system to make demos for, and since Acmlm's is primarily centered around NES and SNES, that'd probably be the best idea for this community (and would also leave me out, since I'm focusing on the Genesis right now). |
46
Posts: 67/87 |
Originally posted by Disch
Originally posted by 46
Then, all's you really needed was m3i and Nesticle, and you were a hacker.
Ah yes... the "good" old days. Back when hacks were of such high calibur as "Super KKK Bros" and "Wheel Chair Mario". And let's not forget "Garbage Graphics mario" or whatever it was called which just replaced all the CHR with random pixels.
Thank god things changed.
Lol. My buddy gave me a cd 2 years ago that had like every NES rom in existance, including about 100 SMBx hacks I'd never heard of, which got me excited because I figured at least one of 'em had to be good, and on more than just a novelty level. I got a good laugh out of "Super 2600 Bros.", but otherwise, I'm still lookin'. (actually I gave up a long time ago.)
But those people didn't even use m3i or Yy-Smb1 or anything like that. Most of 'em just spent 15 minutes changing just a handful of graphics and felt that was good enough. Which made the ones that actually did modify the levels that much better. |
Insomnia DMX
Posts: 19/23 |
Originally posted by Lenophis
It is because of things like that (but not exclusively) is why TEK and DES were ripped apart to nothing.
And that's why ZMD hasn't been updated in ages and has no new users. I came into the "scene" through ZMD. I'm beginning to think that I'm the only one... 
But ZMD would suck if more noobs came in. That's about the only thing I like about ZMD... |
Sukasa
Posts: 1886/1981 |
(I'm glad I wasn't there for that. )
On the flip side, of your coin, there are people like BMF and DarhkDaiz (plus many more) who are the people who I feel help keep the 'scene' alive, because they present to people the 'ultimate throne' respect kinda thing, where "OMFG if I get really good I can respected like _____!!!1one" and that. In truth, that is one of the things that motivate me to continue hacking and to do the best I can do. Yes, some n00bs do get to be very annoying, and as much sa I hate to name names, I have to present Orynider for that, as he released the same hack several times with only small modifications, or red_oxygen who couldn't listen to the fact that the SNES would not support C like a computer.
In the end however, the 'state of the hacking community' depends on who you base it on; It's going strong if you base it on people like JJ, smallhacker, BMF, darkdaiz, Ice man, and several others. Those people try hard not only to hack (Ice man's SMW3, BMF's SMO, but to support those who hack (smallhacker's programs, BMF's releases). If I were to look from someone else's standpoint, I feel I might be able to put myself into that group, not because I'm me, but because I try to always expand on the limits presented by the original game engine. Yes, I'll admit that to some that is self-gratification, but for me that's the plain truth. And while some people will give up, others will not settle, and instead learn what they need to do. How else would BMF and DarhkDaiz be the uber-hackers they are now had they not pushed their own limits?
In retrospect, It all depends on who you take into account, and how far they're willing to go. |
Dish
Posts: 592/596 |
Originally posted by 46
Then, all's you really needed was m3i and Nesticle, and you were a hacker.
Ah yes... the "good" old days. Back when hacks were of such high calibur as "Super KKK Bros" and "Wheel Chair Mario". And let's not forget "Garbage Graphics mario" or whatever it was called which just replaced all the CHR with random pixels.
Thank god things changed. |
beneficii
Posts: 526/567 |
But 46, a level/map hack, even if completed, is just a lame rendition of the same game if it doesn't have cool new graphics for it; I don't care if the hacker couldn't find someone to make for it so they suck. If they can't do everything, they suxxor and might as well not even try. You suxxor even more if you make the game shorter.
(I wonder how many people will understand what I'm really trying to communicate in this post and how many flames am I going to get from those that don't?) |
46
Posts: 66/87 |
Plain and simple, in 2000, the community was exciting because a lot of people were just realizing the fantasy of creating their own games by modifying existing ones. Then, all's you really needed was m3i and Nesticle, and you were a hacker. The rom's used to be easier to find back then too. Now, there's a few advanced hackers out there that can do basically anything they want to in a game, and as others have already mentioned, this has created this false idea that that's what you need to do to make a good hack.
What I think we really need are people that are willing to settle for doing the best that they're capable of doing, rather than striving to be someone they're not and giving up a week later. Barely anyone even completes any hacks that even have editors made for them; I mean, how many completed Smb3 hacks have been released over the past year, despite numerous editors that let you do all sorts of things to it. What we need are some quality, glitch-free, completed hacks that don't necessarily have all the bells and whistles that the more advanced people have. After all, why should anyone make editors for other less popular games when nobody ever finishes the hacks of the most popular ones. |
HyperLamer
Posts: 7345/8210 |
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
Originally posted by Lenophis
The quality of hacks is also a cause of the problem. For example, this hack titled "Extreem Manseckz," is a hack of some Sonic game for GBA. The author was like "dude, it's a GBA hack. How many others have done that? Love me for it." Not helping at all...
While your sentiment may very well be true I think it's a bit unfair to condemn this hack on the basis of it's content alone. Haven't you ever heard of a sense of humor? The second ANY hack goes into a "dirty humor" direction it is automatically considered to be a terrible hack, a waste of time, and something that all romhackers should be ashamed of. I think that people should lighten up on this. Hacks don't have to be serious all the time. It's true that many of those dirty hacks are just simple graphical changes (I-Mockery, anyone?) but that by no means means that every hack that has a dirty or humorous theme to it is going to be shit. And sorry for going off topic. This is a romhacking bias that gets on my nerves.
Not to mention, that was actually a pretty good hack despite its immature content. Few hacks I know of have sound changes. Most 'dirty humour' hacks are only like 5 minutes worth of effort (LOL I drew a penis on Mario's standing still frame), while this was a rather extensive one. Plus, there aren't many GBA hacks to begin with. Just because you don't agree with a hack's content doesn't mean it's not a good hack. I don't agree with the content of a lot of SMW hacks (specifically, the ridiculously hard levels in the first world) but that doesn't mean that all the work that went into the level design and graphics is meaningless. They're still good hacks, just not my style. |
Xeolord
Posts: 3319/3418 |
There are a lot of valid points here.
Although I have hardly any real material to add, I just have to agree with a lot of people on this issue. I don't think the Rom Hacking community is anywhere near "dying", but it definitely has declined over the last few years.
I was a huge fan of CGC, back in late 02 and early 03. That site got me hooked on everything. From there, I enjoyed watching others make hacks, and then decided to give production a shot myself. I got a little into Graphics Editing, Hex, finding data, and text editing, but other than that it was nothing major.
I think what Rom Hacking communities need, is just diehard devoted people. And these people deserve their credentials. I lost interest because of time, and to this day (even throughout the last year) I haven't put any effort into trying anything myself, other than just messing with already existing level editors.
I saw CGC fall, then DES and finally TEK. They all fell because of inactivity (CGC), people not giving the creators of such rom hacking utilities time (DES), and they just seem to try to become something they weren't (late TEK).
The thing I see now that really bothers me, is the people that come in and make requests. Say, someone requests a hack of a certain game, or someone requests a certain level editor. You can look at it as a few ways - People just don't care, or nobody wants to put in the time. Yeah, I think these people that come and ask such things are just asking to get told, but sometimes, there are people out there that come in with nice ideas and everything, but they just need to realize how small this community is, and not everyone is going to jump up to such work.
I just think that's one of the major things here, some people just need to know and understand, that it takes a tremendous amount of work to make a Rom Hack.
But I really do think that, for the people that do come in and really show that they're trying to learn, they should be taught by people, groups whatever, to continue on this community. That newbie there, may put out one of the coolest hacks next year.
Rom Hacking just needs the devotion.
My (probably pointless) little 2 cents on the issue.
(sorry about all the comma's and grammar, I typed this out basically as I thought to myself in my head). |
Sokarhacd
Posts: 1687/1757 |
I think the lack of people in the rom hacking community is because you have some people who come into it and dont know what the hell they are doing, they try doing something, and fail because they wanted to do something like add something new to the game, but couldnt, so they give up and leave, what needs to be done, is try to get them to actually READ something before they suddenly say "OMG THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, IM NEVER GOING TO HACK AGAIN!", or post something ridiculous, and get flamed, and leave, never to be seen again, what they fail to understand is, if they read, and actually try they may be able to accomplish what they started to do, and if they still cant do it, and come to a place like this, and actually ask something, and know what they are talking about and post it in a decent matter, they are most likely to get a good answer, and possibly even one that will help them accomplish what they started.
Its is an almost impossible problem to solve, as its up to the person trying to hack, and not the community itself as much, since if a person decides they cant/wont learn something, then they cant really contribute anything. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 412/445 |
Originally posted by Lenophis
The quality of hacks is also a cause of the problem. For example, this hack titled "Extreem Manseckz," is a hack of some Sonic game for GBA. The author was like "dude, it's a GBA hack. How many others have done that? Love me for it." Not helping at all...
While your sentiment may very well be true I think it's a bit unfair to condemn this hack on the basis of it's content alone. Haven't you ever heard of a sense of humor? The second ANY hack goes into a "dirty humor" direction it is automatically considered to be a terrible hack, a waste of time, and something that all romhackers should be ashamed of. I think that people should lighten up on this. Hacks don't have to be serious all the time. It's true that many of those dirty hacks are just simple graphical changes (I-Mockery, anyone?) but that by no means means that every hack that has a dirty or humorous theme to it is going to be shit. And sorry for going off topic. This is a romhacking bias that gets on my nerves.
Back to the subject at hand. I think the situations been analyzed fairly well. It's a mix of problems from an unwillingness to learn and an unwillingness to tolerate people wishing to learn. So... talk is all well and good, but what do you propose to do about it? I don't know if there really is a lot... The situation will probably continue to deteriorate, regardless of any good intentions to do otherwise. Being aware and educated about a problem can only do so much. This awareness isn't going to stop newbies from asking questions or getting the idea that "hey! this guy can do my hack for me!". I think part of the problem is that some of our resources have been dwindling. Zophars has gone down the shitter, and many pages now are just empty. Romhacking.org is dead because InVerse can't take care of it. I think we need another center of information. A forum is not enough. Is anyone here up to this idea?
As for me, I know I've been guilty of an unwillingness to learn. My problem is that I get very easily frustrated with what I have trouble understanding. I stick with what I know. I'm proud that I am among one of the few skilled spriters/pixel artists here. What I don't like is that every single romhacker must become either a programmer or an ASM guru. It strikes me as wrong. I am a firm beleiver in becoming a specialist. Would any of you say it's a bad thing that I am a much better pixel artist than I am a romhacker? As for learning, I am currently trying to learn C++ (thanks for the link to allegro btw, bbit. Once I figure out enough of what the hell I'm doing that will come in handy). |
HyperLamer
Posts: 7339/8210 |
Originally posted by Setzer
But guys, lets not forget, some noobs, even if they're whiny or ugly, actually do want to learn stuff. remember darhkdaiz before he knew asm? I did, he was a newbie, he was a tekkie, he was lame. then he actually learnt stuff and nobody seems to think he's lame anymore. so don't be afraid to shove tutorials and readme's and 6502.txt's in newbies face and say "read this, bitch, and you might not be our bitch anymore, we might even be your bitches."
Heh, yeah, I recall how I was before I knew much about ASM. I couldn't seem to wrap my head around the fact that 'ASM' stood for 'Assembly Programming Language' (not quite, but that's what I was told ). Oh, and let's not forget when I tried to hack text before I knew of table files... I actually found a font editor program, made a font with the letters arranged as they are in the game, and viewed the text in Notepad. Though I had failed to realize that this wouldn't change what I actually typed... |
xZeaLitYx
Posts: 180/199 |
Editors are the real legacy. Temporal Flux has been met with much less actual use than I thought it would receive (to my knowledge, no one else is working on a real CT hack that they care to publicize). However, because it's out, the potential and capability to do such will exist from hereon until the end of time, long after the hackers have moved on and people generally aren't interested in this kind of thing anymore. Presenting information and passing it on is the most valuable thing, and probably the hardest for rom hackers, since end users are basically impatient and casual participators. But we're forever indebted for efforts of those who release editors.
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Setzer
Posts: 502/532 |
But guys, lets not forget, some noobs, even if they're whiny or ugly, actually do want to learn stuff. remember darhkdaiz before he knew asm? I did, he was a newbie, he was a tekkie, he was lame. then he actually learnt stuff and nobody seems to think he's lame anymore. so don't be afraid to shove tutorials and readme's and 6502.txt's in newbies face and say "read this, bitch, and you might not be our bitch anymore, we might even be your bitches." |
dan
Posts: 745/782 |
Originally posted by blackhole89
bbitmaster: Amen. There is a discrepancy between hacking and editing
Indeed. The primary problem in ROM hacking at the moment we have too few of the hackers. Look at how few editing programs are released now (or even announced). Look at how few people are actually making these programs. Look at how few people are figuring out how games work, finding data, etc.
There is a severe lack of these people. The most important people in ROM hacking, I reckon. |
blackhole89
Posts: 922/971 |
bbitmaster: Amen. There is a discrepancy between hacking and editing (i.e. we have a lot of people who make good levels but totally fail at hacking), but for some reason I don't see people who don't read the stickies before posting on an obviously covered topic mostly can't do either well.
Age really doesn't matter that much in ROM hacking. I started ROM hacking when I was 13 (my first actual hacking jobs, being cracking a game's map format and writing an editor, even when I was 11 or 12) and I think I did more or less well, as did others at that age. |
Lenophis
Posts: 762/830 |
Unfortunately, both sides are correct in this matter. It's where it is because of some unwillingness to help AND the idiot n00bs being even n00bier because of the "Do my hack for me" button.
It is because of things like that (but not exclusively) is why TEK and DES were ripped apart to nothing. Part of the problem not being fixed, is that the problem isn't completely acknowledged yet. Want the problem to disappear? One way to get it in that direction would be to pull all copies of all game-specific editors, then never answer another question about them again. Extreme. Another would be just not ever answering any questions about game-specific editors. It's up to the user to figure out the editors' capability, not everybody else telling them how to do "x cool thing," or "OMG WHY CAN'T I FIGURE THIS OUT?!" That can also be attributed to people not reading the god damn readme's that come with editors.... I'm willing to bet that a majority of game-specific editor questions can be answered if people would just take time to read that little .txt file...
The point I think bbit is trying to get across: the n00bs must put more effort and more thinking into what they are doing. As to Disch's follow-up, I agree, some asking others to do the work for you. *looks at xcom*
There's also two points which I think have gone completely ignored. In order to learn the concept of programming in the first place (as a stepping stone to getting the assembly down) people program editors for testing their skills. This has come into common practice, although now it's leaning towards making NES emulators.
The second point, some n00bs just don't care.
In the end, I don't see this getting any better. If it does, it'll get worse first.
--Edit--
The quality of hacks is also a cause of the problem. For example, this hack titled "Extreem Manseckz," is a hack of some Sonic game for GBA. The author was like "dude, it's a GBA hack. How many others have done that? Love me for it." Not helping at all... |
beneficii
Posts: 525/567 |
I've learned that whenver you embark on any big project, you're going to have problems come up and sometimes those problems may seem very big and take a long time to fix. The editor I released was the third incarnation I had started; I had two failed ones come before it. Doing any big project is hard work (mine took 3 months of a lot of work) and you have to have a pretty good idea of what you're actually trying to do, or the work is going to be much harder. Before you start, you should do as much research as you can into how you're going to do it; granted, you won't probably catch everything, but you'll have a pretty idea of what you have to do.
If you have questions, then ask them, but expect them to be sometimes unanswerable by any but you. You could have done something stupid earlier that wasn't immediately apparent but came back later to bite you. When I programmed my editor, that was a problem I had a lot, but I had it less as I went on, because I learned. 
That's pretty much what this whole discussion is about. |
Dish
Posts: 586/596 |
The part you quoted from me wasn't so much from Kuja Killer as it was from others. This part of my rant was mainly 'inspired' by Kuja Killer's post:
When people post things like "GAH THIS IS TOO HARD I GIVE UP" I'm certainly not going to feel sorry for them.. and I'm probably not going to help them. There will always be problems/hurdles to overcome... and if their first problem fills them with that much dispair, then I don't see much hope for them in the future... so I'm not going to waste my time with them.
There's a difference between taking advantage of the help available, and being dependent on others to help you. Even if your question goes unanswered (which, as you pointed out, can happen sometimes)... you should still be able to function without the external help. I'm not saying it will be easy... I know it can be hard and frustrating... I've been there before. We've all been there before.
For example, look at DD... when's the last time he posted a ROM hacking related question on here? Does that mean he's not learning anything new? Not at all. He's just able to function without someone holding his hand. Now I'm not saying all hackers should have to be on the same level as DD... I was just using him as an example. My point is, assistance in this form (Q&A on a forum) is a helpful, but unnecessary resource. Hackers can use a forum for help... but should not rely on a forum to solve all their problems. |
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hukka
