Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Warning
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Tzepish
Posts: 8/24 |
Sorry about that, Bit-Blade, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I'm used to other boards using the term "OP" or "Original Poster", so it was simply habit. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 405/445 |
I think you're shooting a little broad there, buddy. I wasn't addressing the complete list of "what's wrong with romhacking today". This is just a singular issue I have. This one forum may be one of the biggest romhacking communities around, but it is hardly the only one, nor has this forums purpose ever been to gather and organize relevant romhacking information. It's just a place to showcase hacks, ask questions, and bring up discussions concerning the subject.
Oh yes, one more thing.
Tzepish, if you're going to talk about me please call me by name. It feels a little... dehumanizing to refer to me as the Original Poster. As if I were just some nameless statistic. |
DarkPhoenix
Posts: 25/31 |
So, complaints about newbies, complaints about poor quality hacks, complaints about not enough collaboration, complaints about not enough questions answered as well as they could be.
Let's start smaller, and perhaps be a little less antagonistic. Another way of looking at all of the relevant aforementioned issues is to find a better way to compile and present the information that we have to offer, that we do wish to share.
Maybe rather than trying to encourage group hacks (which isn't to imply that it is or isn't a good idea), we should focus on making it so that any hack, group or individual, can spend less time reinventing the wheel. Wasn't that one purpose of this board in the first place? Is it doing its job? Maybe we need something with a different structure than a forum, in addition to the forum, at least for sharing and compiling information that we are sure of, such as offsets, fixes, or even techniques. A forum pushes old threads to the back, leaving useful information buried in history. Let's keep in mind that a large part of rom hacking, however you define it, is research, in some sense or another. Let's not leave the research that we are willing to share scattered across the internet, or lost in the depths of forums. If we can at least collect the information we have and make it easy to browse through, even if it's not too organized, it will at least provide a better place to point already answered questions. It would provide a more permanent place for useful information than stickies. Maybe not everyone will contribute, but some will, and that's better than nothing. Just a suggestion.
On a similar note, maybe to help the newbies, as well as protect our own sanity, we need something greater and separate for them than what we already have. Maybe we at least need a Newbie Board, rather than a few passing newbie threads, or perhaps something even more structured. If it's a board, it would at least keep the newbie questions separate, and provide for less verbal abuse, as only those interested in answering would have to look at them. If not a board, then something like what I mentioned above, where we can directly contribute like we can in this forum, but without losing it in the depths of the board over time.
Good games will come out of creating less work for the individual, and allowing the focus to be shifted to content. How do we do this? It's the same question that the programming industry, and in particular, the game industry is facing. Things like the eXtreme Programming methodology and Eclipse.org have come out of this. For us, we have group hacks and we have specialized editors to help us with simple tasks. Not everyone is fond of these solutions. Rather than beat eachother up over them, why don't we come up with some other approaches. I say we find a way to make the information we have more accessable, as we're essentially sharing the same code, be it already compiled. Does anyone else have any ideas? |
AP
Posts: 263/333 |
Originally posted by Kasper
Originally posted by TheGreatWhiteDope
Originally posted by Kasper
Originally posted by AP
One group hack that I know that may be working is a group SMB hack.
Well this group hack could of went pretty well, it is these guys that are really stopping progress. I mean how much work can TheGreatWhiteDope do to an Acmlmboard? And Shadic just stopped. I read the thread on that board, it's only 5 levels per person. They must think that 5 levels is really hard to do. But that is just my opinion.
*My world IS done*
I was waiting for Shadic and you'd be surprised how much work I can do with my Acmlm Board.... 
Oh, so you DID finish your world. The last post on that thread was 09-11-05 06:19 PM as of me writing this post, I thought there would be more up to date progress in that thread, oh well 
And fancy mods doesn't attract me to an Acmlmboard, it is the content. 
It's called "silent progress", according to the secret thread at his board that talks about the progress of the SMB hack. |
Kasper
Posts: 107/108 |
Originally posted by TheGreatWhiteDope
Originally posted by Kasper
Originally posted by AP
One group hack that I know that may be working is a group SMB hack.
Well this group hack could of went pretty well, it is these guys that are really stopping progress. I mean how much work can TheGreatWhiteDope do to an Acmlmboard? And Shadic just stopped. I read the thread on that board, it's only 5 levels per person. They must think that 5 levels is really hard to do. But that is just my opinion.
*My world IS done*
I was waiting for Shadic and you'd be surprised how much work I can do with my Acmlm Board....
Oh, so you DID finish your world. The last post on that thread was 09-11-05 06:19 PM as of me writing this post, I thought there would be more up to date progress in that thread, oh well
And fancy mods doesn't attract me to an Acmlmboard, it is the content. |
TheGreatWhiteDope
Posts: 68/108 |
Originally posted by Kasper
Originally posted by AP
One group hack that I know that may be working is a group SMB hack.
Well this group hack could of went pretty well, it is these guys that are really stopping progress. I mean how much work can TheGreatWhiteDope do to an Acmlmboard? And Shadic just stopped. I read the thread on that board, it's only 5 levels per person. They must think that 5 levels is really hard to do. But that is just my opinion.
*My world IS done*
I was waiting for Shadic and you'd be surprised how much work I can do with my Acmlm Board.... |
Tzepish
Posts: 7/24 |
Well, it may have also been a simple mistake of the newbie's part. It takes just as much effort to refer a newbie to a newbie guide and warn them to read the stickies next time than it does to berate them. I'll admit, though, that berating them can be more humorous.
 |
blackhole89
Posts: 910/971 |
Problem is that 90% of the "how do I do this and that" threads could have been obviously easily answered if the person in question had read the stickies before. People who are plain too dumb/selfish to do so don't deserve our attention and time. (Now didn't that sound elitist?  ) |
Tzepish
Posts: 6/24 |
As for the cooperation debate, since I feel I should probably toss my two coins in, obviously a game will be better if a team of people work together on it, each contributing their expertise and ideas. Obviously it can be very difficult to get a team like that, especially in the chaos of this "internet" thing. Great hacks have been produced both ways.
The original poster, though, meant cooperation in the sharing of knowledge and resources. Hacking documents and tools are wonderful things. What I'd like to see less of (and I'm sure the OP agrees), is this:
newhacker: hi, i'm new to hacking. what's a table file?
l33th4x0r: It's your mother. Don't expect any help from us if you don't even know what a table file is.
I can understand the frustration in answering the same questions over and over again, but that's what newbie guides are for - for us to link newbies to. |
blackhole89
Posts: 909/971 |
Editing (using tools others made for you) is often of more effect to the actual quality of a hack than every piece of what you do yourself (hex/assembler hacks, whatever). Still, it is these little pieces of additional work that make a hack exclusive compared to others, and it is very painful to the ones out there doing "the real work" to see how the only-editor users are celebrated as "great ROM hackers" while the actual hackers' work is rarely accounted. (Watch the "Best ROM hacker votings" going on here now and then... 70+% of the award-takers probably don't even know to read hex, not even to mention assembler) |
Tzepish
Posts: 5/24 |
Disclaimer: I am not representing any company in this post.
I've been ROM hacking for about eight or nine years, and I recently got a job in game design, and I'll tell you one thing that surprised me: What we ROM hackers do, even with specialized programs, is still much more difficult than what the devkits and such can do. I always wondered what it was like to make games "for real", and now I know - at work we basically use the same kinds of level editors that you find on zophar.net and other sites.
That isn't to take anything away from what game designers do, however. The challenge of the job isn't in the technical difficulty of physically making the thing - it's the ideas, creativity, the design of the thing. Which is where, I think, more of an emphasis should be placed on our hacks as well.
Suppose two hackers each start work on a Super Mario World hack. We'll call these two "Specter" and "Jester". Specter uses nothing but a hex-editor and a graphics editor on his hack, while Jester uses a full-blown Super Mario World editor. If Jester releases his hack first, and it's alot more fun than Specter's hack, then whose hack are we gonna' enjoy playing more? Jester had more creative vision - who cares if how he did it was "easier"? Was it "easy" designing so many fun levels?
Now, I don't mean to say that we should abandon our hex-editors, or that there's no benefit to doing things by hand. But what I would definitely be in favor of is the abolishment of this notion that using level editors and such makes you less of a hacker.
Make fun games -> play fun games. Use whatever tools you need to accomplish the job. |
Kyoufu Kawa
Posts: 2315/2481 |
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
For the most part a lot of people specialize. Now... if these specialists combined their powers, you'd get a whole (at least in a small team). If you do more than that, you get a real sort of team.
Text!
Graphics!
Assembler!
Sound!
Heart!
By your powers combined I am Captain Co-op!
Because this discussion needs more semi-ontopic humor. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 402/445 |
Man... I really don't feel like debating about this anymore XD.
It's not a matter of playing something you don't like, red. No one typically does that anyway. Cooperation in romhacking WOULD be a good thing but no... not everyone needs to compromise their singular artistic vision. I just think it's a very wise idea. Also, I think the word you wanted to use there is 'analogous' (same difference though).
I still hold to the fact that no matter what, one person is almost never that good at EVERYTHING in romhacking to be able to handle that. For the most part a lot of people specialize. Now... if these specialists combined their powers, you'd get a whole (at least in a small team). If you do more than that, you get a real sort of team.
Ha... this is wierd. It's not often that you disagree with me. |
redrum
Posts: 10/12 |
in my mind a hack is analogical to a piece of art no matter how the person paints the canvas. sure there are bad pieces of art, but art they are still.
a group of people working on a single piece of art doesnt often turn out quite as well, compared to a single person manipulating it the way the want. this isnt always true though...
anyways, i think people should be able to hack whatever damn way they wish without being criticized (besides constructive criticizm, of course )
you dont have to play something ya dont like, ya know. |
Kasper
Posts: 106/108 |
Originally posted by AP
One group hack that I know that may be working is a group SMB hack.
Well this group hack could of went pretty well, it is these guys that are really stopping progress. I mean how much work can TheGreatWhiteDope do to an Acmlmboard? And Shadic just stopped. I read the thread on that board, it's only 5 levels per person. They must think that 5 levels is really hard to do. But that is just my opinion. |
Setzer
Posts: 469/532 |
Lets not forgot one great hack that's been done by a team. DXOII. it so rocks. |
Jathys
Posts: 44/48 |
When you're playing a game, who in hell cares if you call it a hack, edit, modification, or whatever... A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.
This thread wasn't intended to be another "Editors are for n00bz" thread. We've got too many of those already. (Let it be known that the only reason I code editors is so I won't have to edit the data on such a low level . . . I do not think in binary).
The basic point is that we DO need more mods developed by groups. Two people can be a group. What tends to happen though is that a "n00b" volunteers to do the level design, since that's easy with an editor, and someone else does graphics and ASM and everything else . . . I suck at graphics; I have one main graphic person for Alliance. I suck at ASM; I'm doing 90% of my own ASM, but have people to help me when I get stuck. I get bored with level design; There's no fun for me in playing a game if I've made all the levels myself, so a few people will be doing this. In total, Alliance will be done by 4 hackers and several advisors. If it weren't for the ASM portion (I'm working on it, give me a break), it could be done already . . . But no one would want to play.
Anyway, I digress. If you're a n00b, develop and then show you've got some sort of skills. Then come up with an idea. Then ask someone to offer assistance with the idea, once you've shown some initial progress. It's a three step process! |
HyperLamer
Posts: 6888/8210 |
Ah, I haven't really kept up with the Pokémon scene. Back in the G/S days, Germans practically dominated it. |
Coolman
Posts: 29/32 |
Originally posted by HyperHacker
Fusoya, Jonwil, and pretty much every other SMW and Pokémon hacker. (It's probably worst with Pokémon... 50% are n00bs who don't have any info to share, 25% simply refuse to release their information, 24% are Germans who barely speak English well enough to share any info (except with other Germans, of course ), and 1% actually share their information and speak English well enough for it to be understood. SMW's not much better in this regard.
...Why are there so many German Pokémon hackers anyway? And why do so few of them speak any decent amount of English? Don't mean to sound racist or anything but the proportions seem quite unbalanced.
Well, there are no longer so many German hackers. That ones I know are about 10. And the German scene isn't really active any longer. There is just one more active hack "Pokémon Midnight". Btw we don't really know much about the new Pokémon games. Most knowledge is about Gold.
So the problem isn't that there are only few German hackers who speak English but there are few in general. |
LocalH
Posts: 33/46 |
And in the Sonic scene we have assemblable disassemblies of Sonic 1 and 2, so it seems that we're at about the same level insofar as our knowledge of the games, the difference being you guys have better editors for non-hackers (as good as SonED2 is, Lunar Magic owns it easily).
A hack is a hack. If I go through some process, and a byte is modified from the original ROM, then it's a hack. Doesn't matter how useful it is, or what the process used was, if you're modifying bytes in a ROM, then you're hacking, simple as that. There are different levels of hacking (for instance, there's one guy in the Sonic scene who uses a Mac and thus does all his hacking in raw hex - that's hardcore hacking, and is exceptional and not the norm). |
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hukka
