Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Immigration and labor costs
| User | Post |
Thayer
Posts: 446/988 |
Originally posted by SamuraiX
Originally posted by Thayer
Originally posted by Slay
I'm sitting here, laughing, trying to come up with a reason you had to edit that little blurb three times.
Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things...
I would think it was bad spelling. What is with you and opposites?
My spelling is rarely flawed, SamuraiX. Be thankful, I cut away some of my writing in order to be kind. This kindness won't be repeated if you keep up this. |
SamuraiX
Posts: 12/140 |
Originally posted by Thayer
Originally posted by Slay
I'm sitting here, laughing, trying to come up with a reason you had to edit that little blurb three times.
Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things...
I would think it was bad spelling. What is with you and opposites? And on the majority of immigrants, dont use googlefight as the decider of that matter. Also, read this
Immigrants
Aliens admitted for legal permanent residence in the United States.
-http://factfinder.census.gov/home/en/epss/glossary_i.html
So really, illegal immigrants cannot exist. There are, however, people living in the U.S. illegally. |
Thayer
Posts: 394/988 |
Originally posted by Slay
The Thayer says...
Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things...
I suppose I'm the only one who uses Preview with any sort of fervor. After I'm done typing a message, I hit Preview and reread the entire thing, then make changes I see necessary, press Preview again and repeat until I feel my post is ready for others to see. I'd say I spend as much time previewing and editing as I do actually writing. I do this on other message boards, as well, I hate editing, I'd rather do things right the first time. But maybe that's just me.
-- Slay, Master of the Preview Button
I use preview for large posts and those where I'm using HTML that might cause problems. I decided to change what I wrote. That's the purpose of Edit. Accept it, quit being a douche, and move on. |
Slay
Posts: 299/339 |
The Thayer says...
Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things...
I suppose I'm the only one who uses Preview with any sort of fervor. After I'm done typing a message, I hit Preview and reread the entire thing, then make changes I see necessary, press Preview again and repeat until I feel my post is ready for others to see. I'd say I spend as much time previewing and editing as I do actually writing. I do this on other message boards, as well, I hate editing, I'd rather do things right the first time. But maybe that's just me.
-- Slay, Master of the Preview Button |
Zer0wned
Posts: 69/181 |
Originally posted by Zer0wned
Then something about (nonviolent) population control, but I think I've already established how unrealistic and "not gonna happen" my ideals are  (probably riddled with flaws anyway if by some crazy chance it were implemented).
 ... You attacked my pointless, established as un thought-out thought. How... equally pointless . |
Thayer
Posts: 363/988 |
Originally posted by Slay
I'm sitting here, laughing, trying to come up with a reason you had to edit that little blurb three times.
Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things... |
Slay
Posts: 295/339 |
The Zer0wned says...
Uh Slay, for the record the last four samuraix quotes you made were from him quoting my first post. So yeah, he's not joining the coast guard, still just me.
His posting style is a bit confusing, since he doesn't apparently italisize or blockquote phrases he's quoting from other people. I was thrown off when he seemed to be in favor of illegal immigration one minute and against it the next, but let it slide because in the end, I'm arguing against the words that were said, not who said them.
The Zer0wned says...
Because my ideal involves a unified, athiestic (real word?) worldwide democracy, where everyone who decided to vote had to attend a mandatory class first, and take a test showing they know what the hell they're voting for, and not just who's the most popular (leaves room for bias in the educating, but hey, I'm being idealistic here ). Presidential campaigns would be OUTLAWED, because they're a waste of fucking money! People would make decisions based on what they know, not at how easily swayed by mudslinging they are. Oh, and there'd be another step in vetoing/passing laws, the people (sticking to the educated part, but more like a review )!
In my ideal world, everyone can live exactly how they want to. If you want to watch TV all day and never do anything with your life, if you want to travel the world painting landscapes, if you want to settle down and have a family, if you want to be a big important business executive, everything you want you get. Of course, then the conflict arises that what if one person wants something that interferes with someone else's desires? What if a stalker wants to be with the person he obsesses over, but she doesn't want to be with him? But then again, this is called an ideal, and not a realistic hope for the near future.
I don't think a purely atheistic society would be the least bit better than a purely religious society. See, that's the problem, and I'm sure you meant no harm, but everyone seems to think that they know how the country should be run, and it usually consists of imposing their views on everybody else. That's why the ideal world to me is one where everyone gets to live exactly how they want to, that's why I never claim to be "right" except about concrete, factual matters (such as 2.0 repeating + 2.0 repeating equals 4.0 repeating). I think everything is up to a matter of opinion and personal view. That's why I never use the word "morality." Morality is flexible, it has no clear definition, it's up to the individual to decide for themselves what is and isn't moral, and even then they have to decide whether to do moral or immoral things. For example, most people would agree that it's immoral to kill, wouldn't you say so? But at the same time, many people support wars, and they also feel they have the right to kill someone who's already killed.
My percieved stubbornness and illogic stems from the fact that I have my own personal ideals and code of conduct that I rigidly adhere to. I don't care what other people percieve as moral, immoral, legal, illegal, right, wrong, because those are all just words. I do whatever I want to do, and deal with the consequences as they come (don't get me started on responsibility). I do what I believe is best for me to do, and say things even when they might hurt, but I'm consistant.
Sometimes I feel like I don't belong in this generation, that my ideas are ahead of my time, but then I think, MLK's ideas were far ahead of his time. What if he'd just quit, simply because his dream seemed unattainable? So I'll do my best, and hope for others to do the same.
The Thayer says...
If I don't give SamuraiX the opposite of what he wants, someone will sneak up behind me with a large stick. And I really don't want that.
I'm sitting here, laughing, trying to come up with a reason you had to edit that little blurb three times. |
Thayer
Posts: 274/988 |
Originally posted by Slay
The Thayer says...
I was just trying to make his life better by giving him the opposite of what he wanted.
Flawless logic. But apparently, according to the admins' general consensus, I have the most offensive and problematic layout in board history...
If I don't give SamuraiX the opposite of what he wants, someone will sneak up behind me with a large stick. And I really don't want that.
|
Zer0wned
Posts: 68/181 |
Uh Slay, for the record the last four samuraix quotes you made were from him quoting my first post. So yeah, he's not joining the coast guard, still just me  .
While I'm addressing you, Slay, I think it'd be good for me to point out that there's a side of me that totally agrees with you. But being stubborn and idealistic never worked for me, perhaps it's served you better.
Because my ideal involves a unified, athiestic (real word?) worldwide democracy, where everyone who decided to vote had to attend a mandatory class first, and take a test showing they know what the hell they're voting for, and not just who's the most popular (leaves room for bias in the educating, but hey, I'm being idealistic here ). Presidential campaigns would be OUTLAWED, because they're a waste of fucking money! People would make decisions based on what they know, not at how easily swayed by mudslinging they are. Oh, and there'd be another step in vetoing/passing laws, the people (sticking to the educated part, but more like a review )!
Then something about (nonviolent) population control, but I think I've already established how unrealistic and "not gonna happen" my ideals are (probably riddled with flaws anyway if by some crazy chance it were implemented).
|
Arwon
Posts: 453/506 |
Well, Slay, I read it in the Economist, so it must be true. They seem to theink on this issue Bush's beliefs *are* at odds with the majority of his party, and probbly his constituents, so he tends to let it slide.
Unfortunately, the entire situation is poison and thus you get the continuing suffering of desperate and exploited people in an unjust economic sitution, and the militaristic idiocy of groups like the Minutemen in Arizona. |
Slay
Posts: 290/339 |
The Zer0wned says...
I'm all for humanitarian interests, but when I see an illegal with a fat (AKA fed) gut and a Toyota go by, while I'm waiting for the bus, weak because in the last two weeks I'd lost over 15 pounds because I'd had little else to eat besides two small servings of rice a day, I tend to feel as though what's happening shouldn't.
Ah, so you feel life is giving you the shaft and let one incident dictate your perspective on a very complex social issue? How do you know he was an illegal immigrant? Because he was Mexican? Maybe you live near the border? Perhaps he didn't speak English? One incident is no reason to hate an entire demographic. There are people dying of starvation, children dying of the chicken pox all around the world, and yet Russell Simmons somehow needs a diamond-encrusted toilet seat. Tell me how that's fair. But does that excuse me to hold resentment against the rich or overindulged in general, because of one percieved injustice?
The Zer0wned says...
Added to that, there are people in my position, and they are just as outraged as I am losing a potential job to someone not even legally entitled to work in the country. I think the only reason you don't think the poverty stricken/homeless complain much about it is because their voices don't get heard, and when they do get heard, they're too busy bitching about what the government isn't giving them for nothing.
That's entirely possible, I wasn't implying that the truly downtrodden never complained, only that the most vocal are the most well-off and the least qualified to complain. Maybe you personally have legitimate reasons to be angry, maybe you genuinely are getting treated unfairly. There's two solutions.
1) Legalize illegal aliens (a process that would involve teaching them to speak English, about our history and other processes that legal aliens go through) so that they can't be offered low wages any more. Then, they can't get hired because they'll work for less than you, which means you're on equal grounds, and whoever gets hired just got lucky, or was more qualified.
2) The generally more enthused yet morally questionable ideal; round 'em up and toss 'em out in old-fashioned cowboy style.
I'm not discounting your personal experiences at all, I'm just saying that you and people like you are not qualified to speak on this matter because you're so emotionally involved, and even if it's sub-conscious, could be motivated by revenge, resentment and anger, and I don't think any rational person wants to go around legislating on those grounds.
All the great philanthropists and charitable figures in history that I've come across have followed the same general principle which can be best summed up in a single sentance. "This is bigger than me." Think about yourself in your own life. When it comes to how to run the country, think about the greater good of all humanity. Not the good of Americans, not the good of Mexicans, not the good of the working class, not the good of the illegal aliens, the good of humanity at large. Ask not what is in your best interest, but what's the right thing to do.
The Zer0wned says...
As for value of life, it's kind of a rule to show some kind of bias towards your own people over others.
I realize that I'm the odd one here, that I'm the "antagonist" of sorts when I say this, that I'm being difficult and stubborn, but I don't adhere to any concieved "rules," be they written or understood. "You gotta look out for your own." is not a philosophy I prescribe to, by any means. Why? Favoritism kills. Though, technically I do look out for my own, but I consider my own to be the human race, and even then I care about animals a lot, too. The second you put yourself above anybody else, you've lost a small bit of your humanity. That's what I think.
Again, I know I'm being difficult, stubborn and idealistic, but those qualities which make people hate me are the exact same ones which make others love e. It seems I can find no middle-ground; everyone I come across - in person or online - either adores or abhors me. But that's fine by me. As far as I'm concerned, easy people are boring and difficult ones are interesting.
The Ziff says...
Yeah, that's happened to me too. A Puerto-Rican immigrant took my job at McDonalds. Everyone knew he wasn't legal. Simple fact was he was a better worker and wouldn't complain about minimum wage.
Ziff brings up a good point; if an illegal immigrant gets a job, why does his legal status automatically rule out the possibility that he's simply more qualified than someone else? Just because they're illegal immigrants doesn't make them dumb or socially inept or incompetant. It's completely possible that they're just as if not more well suited for a job than Joe American, but of course, that doesn't stop ol' Joe from complaining. That's the American Way; if you can't sue, complain. Also, just because someone is an illegal alien doesn't automatically mean they attained their job through illegal means. I heard of a family of illegal immigrants from Mexico; the mother and three sons. They all speak English just fine, the mother is a doctor and the oldest son is in community college heading down the same route. When people say "illegal immigrants are bad because they're illegal" you're including her in that group. Should we throw her out, despite her obvious personal merits, just because she's not yet a legal citizen? Tell me where the fairness is there. She's the typical illegal alien; you wouldn't know she was illegal unless you scrutinized, and she's just as constructive as a legal citizen. The cases of individuals who come into this country illegally because they're willing to work dirt-cheap are the rarity, the media just blows it out of proportion. Why? Because we're gruesome. When's the last time you heard a report about a safe driver, or a plane that landed smoothly? The media focuses on the car crashes, the plane disasters, and the genuinely unfair illegal immigrants. But are you to construe that all cars and airplanes are unsafe, just because all you ever see is crashes and death? Are you to construe that all illegal aliens are like Juan Fencehopping $1.20-an-hour, just because that's all you ever hear about on the news?
The Ziff says...
Oh, and NAFTA TECHNICALLY gives us the ability to switch between Mexico, Canada and USA as open workers freely. In practise it doesn't work that way, but that's the theory. Mind you, I think this whole "Americans who have been here for 20 years = legals because they're Europeans not Mexicans" idea is bullplop. I've always thought of whites as illegal immigrants. But whatever.
I'm laughing as I type this, but by any chance are you evil_eric? If not, forget I asked. Just something about the way you speak and your opinions reminds me of someone I know from another forum. Regardeless, I second your final statement. Not to go off on another tangeant, but most of American land was stole from the natives, by brutal force. They say America is founded on the ideals of freedom of speech and religion, of liberty and justice. Tell that to the millions of slaughtered natives, tell that to their descendants whose pride has been broken and live in veritable internment camps which we cutely call "reserves," tell that to the slave labor brought in from Africa that virtually built this country with blood and sweat the likes of which no modern American will ever know.
The Arwon says...
Slay, I think Presidente Bush is actually in the "normalise the situation" camp... the Republicanss are riven by a heated divide between the KICK THEM OUT and the Normalisation camps, I think the libertarian pragmatist camp is the minority and so Bush isn't too vocal about his views.
Ahh, you may be right, I don't know for sure. But there's a difference between Bush the man and Bush the administration. They often hold conflicting views.
The Zer0wned says...
Your second point: no! it's not just that simple!! Like I said in my first post, there's no opportunity to jump in and say "hey, I'll work for 50 cents an hour less than that guy". But for employers, it's an assumed fact that illegals will work for minimum wage or less, so if you don't have a workplace that keeps its hiring strictly legal, you have the fact looming over your head that they may very well bring someone in to work for significantly less than you.
If you know they're involved in illegal activity 1) why do you want to work for them and 2) why don't you report them to the athorities?
The Zer0wned says...
As for the generalized accusation that they work harder than me, I'm going to let that slide. I've worked with them before, they work no more, no less harder than anyone I wouldn't consider lazy.
You're making brash blanket statements again. "They." It's "them vs. us" mentality. "They" work no harder or no less hard than you, huh? Can you really say that and sleep soundly at night? So confident that "they" are some faceless mass, rather than individuals with a label forced upon them? I've said it elsewhere on this board, I hate blanket statements. "Men are pigs," "Women are fickle." People use blanket statements like that, they attack groups like that when they have no legitimate argument against any individuals. But don't get me started on groups vs individuals. I'll talk your ears off. Or erm...read your...eyes out, since this is text and all.
The Zer0wned says...
Maybe I just work harder than the average person, but "works hard, will work for minimum wage" is nothing compared to "will work for less than minimum wage, can't unionize against you, and unlikely to ask for a raise," You can't offer that as an American, and goddammit, why am I alone in saying that you shouldn't have to!?.
You aren't alone, most of America agrees with you. As far as this topic is concerned, I feel safe saying that Ziff and I are just two stubborn bastards. No offense meant, Ziff. It's a compliment.
The Zer0wned says...
That lady who eats a granola bar every other day? A granola bar costs like a $1.00-$.33, rice costs under 3 cents a serving (if you get the $10 50 LB bag), and is better for you. And going off the record, I think she's exagerrating, I highly doubt that it would provide enough calories to live off of for 48 hours.
As long as it remains hydrated, the human body can last weeks with little or no food.
The Zer0wned says...
If I'm giving the impression that I'm frustrated at the people themselves, I'm not. They're trying to feed and house their families and themselves, I'd damned well do whatever it took in the same position. What I am frustrated at is what the hell is being fucked up so badly in the mexican government that their citizens come here and work for so little, so willingly.
Now that's a legitimate question. There's obviously something wrong in Mexico with the government or public planning or something, where criminal cartels run largely unopposed and people are fleeing the country in record numbers. But the same could be said about the mob in America and the present-day record number of Americans moving to Canada (albeit legally and in no huge rush).
And as long as we're talking about frustrations, do you want to know what I'm frustrated at? These trigger-happy wannabe-cowboys calling themselves the Minutemen. That name is just an absolute insult. The real minutemen were members of the colonial militia that defended themselves against oppressive British rule. Does that at all seem analogous to angry Texan vigilantes running a background check on every brown-skin they come across?
The SamuraiX says...
Now, the only type of immigration I have any issue with is illegal immigration. I've found that people who are pro-illegal immigration don't really know what goes on, the real effects on unemployment, and the unfair competition that goes on.
Side A says Side B doesn't know what they're talking about, Side B says Side A doesn't know what they're talking about. It's useless to the debate to simply try and discredit your opponent, rather than trying to build a legitimate case of your own accord.
The SamuraiX says...
When there are two equal people, and a country has to choose one to support, it's downright wrong to not choose its own citizen in such a position.
Some might say that the problem itself lies in the concept of citizenship. What if there was no such thing as citizenship -- of any country? You see, what you're doing with statements like this is judging people based upon where they were born, rather than their personal merits. Judging people by circumstance - especially uncontrollable circumstance such as where one was born - instead of by their merit is reprehensible in any case in my eyes. It's right up there with sexism, racism and homophobia.
The SamuraiX says...
My opinion on the fairest, and possibly most effective fix for this is to enforce minimum wage, and tax deductions from wages (this means putting pressure on employers), thusly eliminating the unfair competition, as well as incentive to hire illegals in the first place.
That logic doesn't quite work. See, according to you, employers go to Mexico to hire cheap labor. This is illegal. So if they're already breaking the law with their practices, why would you think that they wouldn't continue to break the law, even if a new one was passed?
The SamuraiX says...
I was just thinking about it because I'm going into the Coast Guard in the next few weeks, immigration prevention is actually listed in the job description . That and there was something on the news just now.
And Zer0wned is enlisting as well. Yes, I seem to have forgot a large portion of people who complain endlessly about illegal immigration; those in military service, past or present (or planning for the future). It's not just suits in Washington and special interest groups that are complaining, it's Good Ol' Boys as well. Again, I admit that my opinion is very invalid on this subject, but in my opinion, those who join the armed forces in any form are veritably brainwashed. We're brainwashed enough as it is. Did you know that America is the only nation in the entire western hemisphere of the planet which regularly practices a pledge of allegience to the country in public schools? These children are forced to make a pledge that they can't possibly comprehend. And I remember what it was like in school, those who refused to recite the pledge were sent to the principals office and slapped with a disrupting the class and disobeying orders double-whammy on their permanent records. That alone is endlessly creepy to me. My priority list is this...
1) Those I personally love and care for.
2) Humanity at large.
3) Myself.
I can't honestly say I respect the opinion of anyone who'd list "my country" in the top ten, eleven or fifty-three for that matter. And that's not just true of Americans, I don't hate Americans, despite what you may be thinking, I just dislike fanatic nationalists. I guess I dislike government in general, but only because governments are so involved socially with their citizens, and because they go to war in the name of their citizens. I believe the government should provide health care free of cost, humane services (ambulances, firefighters, police) and have a self-defense squad (not an army trained to seek out combat in other nations), and that's it. This would all be funded by a single simple tax, no sales tax, either. The USDA is the only other government-run outfit that I can name off the top of my head that seems legitimate to me, and that's just because Americans consume so much beef, but in the media-flooded era of twenty-four-hour news channels we live in, even without the USDA, if a company was selling tainted meat or dairy, they wouldn't last a week under media scrutiny.
I want to believe that people are good by nature, and that we raise them to be bad, and therefore, humans can inherently deal with their own problems without major government interference. I suppose that makes me naive.
The Thayer says...
I bet that immigrant across the street has a post layout that is less annoying. Srsly. I'm sure it's fantastic on 800 x 600, but for anyone with a higher monitor resolution, it's annoyingly small.
I'm on a seventeen inch, looks fine to me. In fact, I like it. Which is saying a lot; look at my blocked layout list. There are only three layouts I've come across that I haven't blocked on principle alone. Oh, four, but the fourth is a simple change of text color, no images or formatting.
The Thayer says...
I was just trying to make his life better by giving him the opposite of what he wanted.
Flawless logic. But apparently, according to the admins' general consensus, I have the most offensive and problematic layout in board history...
Uhh...this next statement is directed at anyone who's reading this topic. If I'm being a bitch, just tell me outright and flatly, through PM if you have to (but mention this topic specifically). When it comes to...
• Racism
• Sexism
• Mysoginy
• Homophobia
• European colonization
• Immigration
• Abortion
• Guns
...I tend to let myself go a bit and talk to much, verging on rambling. I'll refrain from posting in this topic any more if I'm really annoying anyone -- my sig is serious, any complaint whatsoever, let me know. I honestly don't try to annoy anyone, even if it's construed as such. I'm just expressing my opinion, same as Zer0wned or SamuraiX, but apparently certain people don't like the manner in which I express my opinion, and a lot of what I say gets construed as flaming. I dunno, just let me know if I'm disturbing the topic, I'll stop posting. All you have to do is ask.
Thayer
Posts: 254/988 |
I was just trying to make his life better by giving him the opposite of what he wanted. |
Zer0wned
Posts: 62/181 |
and thanks for not just sayings something alike to
smaurix ares dum
imigrants arnt americn
die dsmairiX
That "just" gives the statement a slightly different meaning. He was just glad that "Immigrants aren't americans" wasn't my sole arguement.
I guess if you want him to die, that's between you and him . |
Thayer
Posts: 220/988 |
Originally posted by SamuraiX
Make biryani? But good luck with your job, and thanks for not just sayings something alike to:
smaurix ares dum
imigrants arnt americn
die dsmairiX
1. SamuraiX is dumb.
2. Immigrants usually aren't Americans, at least not until they have gotten their American citizenship, and then they are indeed Americans.
3. Die SamuraiX.
Are you happy now? |
SamuraiX
Posts: 6/140 |
Make biryani? But good luck with your job, and thanks for not just sayings something alike to:
smaurix ares dum
imigrants arnt americn
die dsmairiX |
Zer0wned
Posts: 60/181 |
Originally posted by SamuraiX
The fact you have the leisure to be talking of this means a couple things:
1. You have a computer, or easy access to one.
2. You probably don't have to do the type of work they do.
3. If you live in California or somewhere near, you are probably eating the food that they grew (but didn't get paid near that price tag you see at the supermarket).
And now for my reasons why your argument has many, many holes:
4. On taxes, heh, you should be worried about the rich ruling class of the USoA. Tax cuts for them means you(and your offspring, and their offspring, e.g.) have to foot the bill. Pork barreling, anyone?
5. Employers will just keep giving jobs overseas, also meaning less jobs to U.S. citizens. (Skilled labour as well, don't think that the rest of the world is deaf and dumb.)
6. Don't assume that they are eating what you are, there are plenty of "ethnic markets", for lack of better term.
7. Poverty is simple to solve, but greed gets in the way of this. Do you really think illegal workers are getting 5$ an hour? Some still get paid with mainly food and lodging.
8. Again, if you are wondering why your paycheck is so low, look up, not down. The upper class is pocketing your money, not the illegal immigrants.
9. Life isn't fair, people are corrupt.
1. I had money at some point, lost my job and couldn't get another one for some ~strange~ reason. I had to sell some of my stuff, move into my uncle's old office, and join the coast guard in order to not be completely screwed.
2.  you know, they don't ALL pick fruit
4. Never said it was a significant loss.
5. There are too many jobs that wouldn't be cost effective to do so with. I think factory work is pretty much already covered in that department anyway (made in china, wewt)
6. O_o.. when was this ever brought up...?
8. that too
9. Well shya, but it's supposedly the basis of the US for people to have some kind of power to counter that corruption to a point.
And about what you said about not having enough to eat? You could(/can?)
1. Swallow your pride, soup kitchens are numerous, as well as food stamps for legal citizens
2. Don't shop at supermarkets, everything there is overpriced.
1. Soup kitchens? Like they'd let a healthy young guy like myself partake of the less fortunate's food. As for supermarkets, I agree, when I was in my downtime I bought rice in bulk, my meals were roughly 3 cents each. Food stamps, right. That'll bring aaallll kinds of custody issues up, then I would have just lost all of my independance right there  , I wasn't eligible at the time anyway, I don't think.
2. see #1 |
Thayer
Posts: 195/988 |
Originally posted by SamuraiX
Don't think I don't understand, "that illegal immigrant across the street" that does "landscaping" has a brand new car and a bigger house than the rented one I (that am dying at an early age in) live in. Go figure. It is corruption, it happens, but not as much as you think.
I bet that immigrant across the street has a post layout that is less annoying. Srsly. I'm sure it's fantastic on 800 x 600, but for anyone with a higher monitor resolution, it's annoyingly small. |
SamuraiX
Posts: 4/140 |
Originally posted by Zer0wned
(I should specify that I'm referring more specifically to the California-Mexico relationship)
I checked to see if this was already done, and I don't think anything covered this specifically.
Now, the only type of immigration I have any issue with is illegal immigration. I've found that people who are pro-illegal immigration don't really know what goes on, the real effects on unemployment, and the unfair competition that goes on.
When I say unfair competition, I mean the fact that no American citizens have the ability nor opportunity to compete and offer to work for a lower wage than the immigrated competition. Employers GO TO MEXICO, find people that are willing to work for these much lower wages (under min. wage low, because that low wage is still worth quite a bit more there than it is here, making working for such low wages not nearly as bad of a thing), and ship them over here.
These jobs ARE in demand to some point, American people WILL do these jobs, so "they're shitty jobs anyway" isn't a valid arguement. I hate seeing illegal practices like this being supported as if it's America's duty to do this! Even though the idea of it is helping people, it's hurting citizens. When there are two equal people, and a country has to choose one to support, it's downright wrong to not choose its own citizen in such a position.
For each illegal immigrant that prevents a citizen from getting a job, two losses are made: the welfare that the unemployed individual now receives, and the taxes that the illegal doesn't pay.
Low paying jobs provide two things that would normally allow a person to become more hireable individual: work experience, and money for an education.
My opinion on the fairest, and possibly most effective fix for this is to enforce minimum wage, and tax deductions from wages (this means putting pressure on employers), thusly eliminating the unfair competition, as well as incentive to hire illegals in the first place.
This is only really my response to people that think NOTHING should be done about immigration, and that hell, it's a GOOD thing. I don't know about the current ability on doing this, or even what priority this really takes over anything else. I was just thinking about it because I'm going into the Coast Guard in the next few weeks, immigration prevention is actually listed in the job description . That and there was something on the news just now.
The fact you have the leisure to be talking of this means a couple things:
1. You have a computer, or easy access to one.
2. You probably don't have to do the type of work they do.
3. If you live in California or somewhere near, you are probably eating the food that they grew (but didn't get paid near that price tag you see at the supermarket).
And now for my reasons why your argument has many, many holes:
4. On taxes, heh, you should be worried about the rich ruling class of the USoA. Tax cuts for them means you(and your offspring, and their offspring, e.g.) have to foot the bill. Pork barreling, anyone?
5. Employers will just keep giving jobs overseas, also meaning less jobs to U.S. citizens. (Skilled labour as well, don't think that the rest of the world is deaf and dumb.)
6. Don't assume that they are eating what you are, there are plenty of "ethnic markets", for lack of better term.
7. Poverty is simple to solve, but greed gets in the way of this. Do you really think illegal workers are getting 5$ an hour? Some still get paid with mainly food and lodging.
8. Again, if you are wondering why your paycheck is so low, look up, not down. The upper class is pocketing your money, not the illegal immigrants.
9. Life isn't fair, people are corrupt.
And about what you said about not having enough to eat? You could(/can?)
1. Swallow your pride, soup kitchens are numerous, as well as food stamps for legal citizens
2. Don't shop at supermarkets, everything there is overpriced.
Don't think I don't understand, "that illegal immigrant across the street" that does "landscaping" has a brand new car and a bigger house than the rented one I (that am dying at an early age in) live in. Go figure. It is corruption, it happens, but not as much as you think.
|
Arwon
Posts: 450/506 |
It's a poor country (well, more accurately, a highly unequal one - 20% of the population earn 55% of the income), it's very dependent on the US economy, and America has more employment opportunities and much higher wages, and much better employment prospects for the educated (whether the US actually recognises Mexican qualificiations at all is a different issue, of course). Plus it's right next door. It's an old story of economic disparities and it's and hardly unique to the US-Mexican border. Short of building an iron curtain you're not going to stop people coming.
The best solution is work visas and genuine freedom of movement, and proactive education and enforcement of their rights, so the immigrant labourers are in a stronger bargaining position and don't get exploited. Then everyone wins. |
Zer0wned
Posts: 59/181 |
Originally posted by alte Hexe
Guess what I've had to do...
Work harder for less.
"Illegals" work harder than you and will work for less. Plain and simple.
Your first point: Did that actually happen? or is that hypothetical? Because to this day I've yet to hear about anyone pleading with an employer that they'll work for less and land the job because of it. Hell, I've tried that, they just laugh at you and say they can't do that.
Your second point: no! it's not just that simple!! Like I said in my first post, there's no opportunity to jump in and say "hey, I'll work for 50 cents an hour less than that guy". But for employers, it's an assumed fact that illegals will work for minimum wage or less, so if you don't have a workplace that keeps its hiring strictly legal, you have the fact looming over your head that they may very well bring someone in to work for significantly less than you.
As for the generalized accusation that they work harder than me, I'm going to let that slide. I've worked with them before, they work no more, no less harder than anyone I wouldn't consider lazy. Maybe I just work harder than the average person, but "works hard, will work for minimum wage" is nothing compared to "will work for less than minimum wage, can't unionize against you, and unlikely to ask for a raise," You can't offer that as an American, and goddammit, why am I alone in saying that you shouldn't have to!?.
That lady who eats a granola bar every other day? A granola bar costs like a $1.00-$.33, rice costs under 3 cents a serving (if you get the $10 50 LB bag), and is better for you. And going off the record, I think she's exagerrating, I highly doubt that it would provide enough calories to live off of for 48 hours.
If I'm giving the impression that I'm frustrated at the people themselves, I'm not. They're trying to feed and house their families and themselves, I'd damned well do whatever it took in the same position. What I am frustrated at is what the hell is being fucked up so badly in the mexican government that their citizens come here and work for so little, so willingly.
I'm also frustrated at the businesses that never give Poor Guy Joe the chance to compete against $5 An Hour Jose. Maybe it's just Los Angeles.
My main frustration is at the people who say "just deal with it, they're people too, and they're better than you anyway because they're in need and you're not. If you need a job so badly, why don't you just work for less than minimum wage? Because it's not that hard to live off of that much when a studio apt costs $650 a month," Said of course by the same white collar group that complains about immigration and doesn't know what the hell they're talking about either.
What's going on in my eyes, is people are addressing the leaves and stems of a weed, and not the actual root. Something needs to be done in Mexico that will make working in the US instead of Mexico the same small difference between working in Canada instead of the US. I have little doubt that there's something of value there, or at least the means to become more self-sustaining. But seriously, I'm curious, who's f***ing what up so badly over there? |
| This is a long thread. Click here to view it. | |
|
