Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Separation of church and state.
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drjayphd
Posts: 1207/1477 |
Originally posted by geeogree
I'm sorry.... but I just don't see why the majority Christian population of the US or Canada are supposed to bend over backwards because the minority doesn't like our values
You're new at this, aren't you? It's not that we don't like your values. It's that we don't like the militant wing of one specific denomination, in most cases not our own, ruling 250 million people. Or that we don't want a specific denomination's principles formalized. Or that we just don't like militants of any stripe. Or that we don't like people crying repression when they control the executive, legislative, and (for now from the ground up, we'll see when the impending Supe retirements shake out) judicial branches on a federal basis, not to mention the national dialogue.
(As an aside, both the religious and secular ultraconservatives are playing each other and being played by the other. I'd stand back if I was you when the binary compound goes kablooie.)
Oh, and you're not the majority. That'd be like lumping Shiites, Sunnis, and any other splinter groups of Islam together. The Christian spectrum runs quite the gamut, so if you can pick a specific denomination (or sub-denomination, even!) that does claim a majority (not a plurality, we're looking for 50% +1) of Americans, then maybe you can think about possibly considering dreaming of hoping that you could, for one fleeting moment, wish you could talk.
(And yes, I know you're Canadian, but you're talking about 'Murica, aren't'cha?)
Originally posted by geeogree
Freedom OF Religion.... not Freedom FROM Religion
Also, Establishment Clause. Meaning only general, overarcing principles universal to denominations and faiths of all types, not anything specific to one faith or denomination. Thought-crime isn't and will not be a crime, so stop worrying about the guv'mint not being allowed to post commandment number 10.
(Proof: Possession with intent is defined not by what you're planning on doing with your controlled substances. It's defined by how much you have, as in there's gotta be a good reason you have more cocaine than any one person can realistically be expected to consume. Even if everyone's up in arms about marijuana instead of nose candy. The point is that although prosecutors don't know what you're going to do with it, they can make the case that you are distributing because of the amount, not because of what you're PLANNING on doing.) |
Reshaper256
Posts: 129/143 |
Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
"If someone believes it
windwaker
Posts: 1738/1797 |
Originally posted by geeogree
as for the 10 commandments.... sure, why not just rip every religious thing that has ever been put anywhere in this country out of the ground and put it in a warehouse... then no one has to see anything and we can all live happily ever after!
Good idea. =D Now, would this be your point of view if you weren't Christian? No.
Originally posted by geeogree
I'm sorry.... but I just don't see why the majority Christian population of the US or Canada are supposed to bend over backwards because the minority doesn't like our values
Oooh, you poor Christian. Having influenced law greatly within the past ten years wasn't enough for you, you want to screw the minorities and be allowed to put Christian propoganda all over government property. I mourn for the death of your millions of your brain cells, geeo. 
Originally posted by geeogree
Freedom OF Religion.... not Freedom FROM Religion
I agree. Fucking atheists should choose something already.  |
Tamarin Calanis
Posts: 707/1802 |
Originally posted by Skreename
(I'm from Virginia... The "moment of thought" we had in the morning was emphasized as being for whatever was necessary to be done... Prayer was allowed, as was meditation, relaxation, etc. I happened to use it for homework, but that's not entirely relevent.)
hey, I'm also from VA... but I always got in trouble for doing my homework during the moment of silence. The teacher said it might disrupt someone's prayer... =/
"If someone believes it |
Reshaper256
Posts: 127/143 |
Originally posted by geeogree
The protest of what.... 5% of the population?
I'm sorry.... but I just don't see why the majority Christian population of the US or Canada are supposed to bend over backwards because the minority doesn't like our values
It's no one's right to force their religion on someone else, and that's the very point of separation of church and state. Children and students have to go to school and people often have to go to court. When the government starts supporting a certain religion, it demeans the opinions and choices of those who don't believe that way. People have the right to be wrong, and to believe something that |
Arwon
Posts: 381/506 |
Haha, wasn't the Satanic Verses that book by Salman Rushdie?
I can only assume what'd happen is that someone'd issue a fatwa on the courthouse. |
Skreename
Posts: 72/107 |
Now then... What would happen if the Satanic Verses were posted in a courthouse? How long would it be before they were removed?
And why the Ten Commandments over, say, Hammurabi's Code? Justinian's? Both are rather inoffensive examples of early law, and don't attempt to prosecute thought-crimes.
Either way, the government is supposed to be EXCLUSIVELY secular. Not the religion of the majority. Individuals, even teachers, judges, etc. are allowed to keep their religion--on their own time. If they start saying or doing things in their official capacity as a teacher, judge, etc. is when they start causing trouble.
(I'm from Virginia... The "moment of thought" we had in the morning was emphasized as being for whatever was necessary to be done... Prayer was allowed, as was meditation, relaxation, etc. I happened to use it for homework, but that's not entirely relevent.) |
Tamarin Calanis
Posts: 683/1802 |
Stop acting like you're being oppressed, Geeo. Seriously, I'm fucking sick of seeing it from Christians.
You want to see religious groups that actually might have a good reason to complain? How about pagans, who are still misunderstood now and still labelled by many as 'evil'? Or muslims, who have to deal with the news emphasizing "Islamic extremists"? Or maybe atheists (who aren't religious at all, but it fits with the subject), who have to deal every single fucking day with Christians trying to convert them?
Oh, the list goes on, but I'm gonna stop before I get pissed. |
geeogree
Posts: 389/448 |
The protest of what.... 5% of the population?
I'm sorry.... but I just don't see why the majority Christian population of the US or Canada are supposed to bend over backwards because the minority doesn't like our values |
alte Hexe
Posts: 4730/5458 |
But those weren't there for 200 years, they were put there in spite of protests  |
geeogree
Posts: 387/448 |
Ziff: people should be free to worship how, where and what they may.... and to try and force religion upon anyone is really stupid in general...
as for the 10 commandments.... sure, why not just rip every religious thing that has ever been put anywhere in this country out of the ground and put it in a warehouse... then no one has to see anything and we can all live happily ever after! |
drjayphd
Posts: 1183/1477 |
Originally posted by Kefka
Originally posted by drjayphd
Originally posted by Kefka
Originally posted by Mr. Monday
EDITED BY GREY: God damn, that was pissing me off.
Commandment #3, buddy. I would think that someone who is so avid about having these commandments in courthouses wouldn't break one of them by EDITING IN a phrase that uses the Name of the Lord Thy God in vain... Or did you just forget all of them because you didn't see them in your local couthouse?
Bold, italics, and underline added by me. 
Screw you, hipster
Jesus and I love you too. :> |
Kefka
Posts: 3268/3392 |
Originally posted by drjayphd
Originally posted by Kefka
Originally posted by Mr. Monday
EDITED BY GREY: God damn, that was pissing me off.
Commandment #3, buddy. I would think that someone who is so avid about having these commandments in courthouses wouldn't break one of them by EDITING IN a phrase that uses the Name of the Lord Thy God in vain... Or did you just forget all of them because you didn't see them in your local couthouse?
Bold, italics, and underline added by me.
Screw you, hipster |
alte Hexe
Posts: 4721/5458 |
If people want freedom of religion, then on the flip-side people should equally expect freedom FROM religion. Like I said, if the religions want to force themselves upon everyone, irrespective of an individuals views...Then they should be forced to have a secular adjudicator to overlook all activity and a publically oppointed ethics commisioner.
If I'm free in this country to worship as a Catholic or whatever, I should be able to live free from whatever I may wish to worship, too., |
geeogree
Posts: 386/448 |
yeah, I just have to say...
Freedom OF Religion.... not Freedom FROM Religion |
alte Hexe
Posts: 4719/5458 |
If church leaders want to unduly influence the government, then the government should be allowed to set forward principles of honesty, integrity and safety of what they are teaching their congregation. :o
I mean, it's only fair. |
ClockExplosion
Posts: 25/46 |
A division of church and state is almost mandatory in any government (besides a fanatical one). That way, the interests of the church leaders don't get tangled in the interest of state leaders.
However, in a democracy, this represents a small problem. You will have the Church leaders voting, and when there are leaders, there are church members. |
Grey the Stampede
Posts: 2751/3770 |
Originally posted by Kefka
I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT BULLSHIT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING! ZIFF, YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE ON! A HAH! THAT REFERENCES THE MOORES... FUCKING ISLAMIC BASTARDS! YOU GUYS MAY BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH TRYING TO FORCE ATHEISM ON US IN AMERICA, BUT YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER GET INTO HEAVEN! BITCH!
Originally posted by Mr. Monday
EDITED BY GREY: God damn, that was pissing me off.
Commandment #3, buddy. I would think that someone who is so avid about having these commandments in courthouses wouldn't break one of them by EDITING IN a phrase that uses the Name of the Lord Thy God in vain... Or did you just forget all of them because you didn't see them in your local couthouse?
.......I just corrected his grammar and added in question marks where they were supposed to be. |
Arwon
Posts: 369/506 |
But like I said earlier, despite the uberreligious population the paradox is that the US is really really secular. Hence the conflict.
I mean, Australia's a far less religious place than the US (Hillsong nonwithstanding...), as is the UK, but in both countries public schools often have scripture or religion classes and while everyone thinks they're stupid, no-one really cares. Hell, our head of state the Queen is actually the figurehead of a religion. Separation of church and state in both countries basically consists of putting the church in funny hats so no-one takes it seriously. |
DahrkDaiz
Posts: 719/885 |
People of America put their religion on a higher pedistal than their Constitution. I'm willing to bet the majority of America would rather have Christianity as the official religion of the United States, but the Constitution, thankfully, prevents that.
The First amendment prevents absolutely no one from praying in schools. It prevents the school from holding an organized prayer. This isn't a crack down on Christianity like some would like to think. If you allow school organized prayers, you have to have organized prayers for every religion. If you have the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, you must have the Qaran right next to it. It's either no religion, or all religions. The government cannot play favorites with religion and that's all the first amendment says. You can worship the fungus growing between your grandmother's toes, and the government can't do a thing to stop you (but that doesn't mean your grandma can't). |
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