Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - International Women's Day
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The SomerZ
Posts: 736/862 |
Ok, about the socilaism/liberalism-thing: When I say "Liberalism in the American sense of the word", I try to differ between the way Americans and many other people understand the word "liberal". A liberal in many parts of the world is someone who is an economic libarlist, in other words, for a free-market with little-to-none government restrictions (on the old linear scale, this is a person who would be called "right-wing"). A liberal in America, however, is one who is a moral liberalist, in other words, one who believes in freedom of press, free speech, freedom of religion, basically any freedom with things conscerning the human mind and moral system (basically anyone on the old linear scale could hold these beliefs, but liberals in America, members of the Democratic party, are basically centrists). To discern between these two kinds of liberals, one often uses the term "classic liberalist" for the former, and "modern liberalist" for the latter.
However, since this is an international board, we've had quite our share of problems regarding the term liberal, since people interpret it in very different ways in different parts of the world. That's why I put "Liberalism in the American sense of the word", to ensure that there would be no misunderstandings.
As for socialism, it's a political ideology that hardly exists in America (there are, of course, some very small socialist groups and parties in America, but none are big enough to ever have made an impact), and it has practically nothing in common with the politics of the Democratic Party, or modern liberalism as an ideology.
As for me, I'm a radical social-democrat (social-democrat means that you follow an ideology that pushes for socialism through reformist and democratic means. The word democrat in social-democrat has nothing to do with the Democratic Party of America. That I'm radical simply means that I belong to the left-wing of the social-democratic ideology), and thus I feel quite pissed off whenever some ignorant fellow comes around saying that liberalism and socialism is the same thing. They are not! They are far, far apart. I don't agree with a whole lot of what the Democratic party of America stands for, neither do any other communists/socialists/radical social-democrats (or most standard social-democrats, for that matter).
Politics is a lot more than simply this and that, them and us, here and there. There are a whole lot more than only two ideologies in this world, and believe you me, liberals have a lot more in common with conservatives than they do with socialists.
... and the reason for my posting about charcoal suits and grey hats was because I felt the general view on a woman and society was something I thought died out in the fifties. I was trying to be funny, and I'm also pretty sure Arwon was trying to be funny when he said "That's one hell of a strawman. Did you build it yourself, with your MIGHTY MAN HANDS?" (I found it funny anyway). That's why I find your talk about humour and the lack of other posters using it quite, well, odd. |
Cymoro
Posts: 1587/2216 |
Originally posted by Arwon
Liberalism and Socialism are in many ways diametrically opposed philosophies and historically quite abtagonistic towards one another. Look up the Australian Liberal Party sometime.
And also, the word socialism doesnt work as an insult to most people especially outside America, there are many Social Demoratic parties who are members of the socialist international and are quite mainstream.
So OMG SOCIALISM doesn't work as a slur even if you weren't totally being wrong by conflating it with liberalism.
But Socialism leads to the evil commies, and when you become a commie, they win,
Not everything has to lead to anything else. I'm not shooting up a school or showing excessive violence because I play Doom, nor am I going blind when I wank. Same thing applies here, not all political states will eventually turn into another. Besides, liberalism leads to just everyone trying not to offend others, not socialism. With liberals, there'd just be more laws to appease more people (good and annoying). We're not channging from a democracy anytime soon, you have my word. |
Arwon
Posts: 279/506 |
Liberalism and Socialism are in many ways diametrically opposed philosophies and historically quite abtagonistic towards one another. Look up the Australian Liberal Party sometime.
And also, the word socialism doesnt work as an insult to most people especially outside America, there are many Social Demoratic parties who are members of the socialist international and are quite mainstream.
So OMG SOCIALISM doesn't work as a slur even if you weren't totally being wrong by conflating it with liberalism. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 3776/5458 |
So...jei is not only a person who makes posts that are annoyingly long...
He is a mysognist.
Congratulations!
If you want to try me on this, I'll use my vastly superior drop kick logic, ergo...Just don't argue. It was vastly agreed in this thread that sexism = bad. Don't try to introduce such ideas. |
Legion
Posts: 3692/5657 |
Originally posted by Jei*376
If you apply for a Warehouse who pays secretaries $7.50/hour and Truck Loaders $12.00/hour, don't bitch! You are not the ones lifting those 50-100 Lbs boxes repetetively. You lift a pen, a phone and a cup of coffee for your boss. Really hard work there. You are not the one breaking your back everyday for 8-12 hours of hard labor. The only thing you broke in your day today is a nail when you picked up the phone the wrong way. You're not wheeling heavy freight from one end of the plant to another constantly while your legs, back and feet are killing you in the heat of the warehouse.
You really miss the point here too. The problem is that women, in some workplaces, don't get paid the same as men who do (and this next part is important so pay attention) for the SAME exact job, not different ones.
But even still, using your logic, factory workers should be paid more than scientists and doctors because their job is more physically strenuous.
Your logic fails, sorry. |
Kasumi-Astra
Posts: 1478/1867 |
Absolutely. There are litterally thousands of women who work their asses off, and yet, they get paid much less because they're not expected to be the bread winner. If a woman does not have your traditional set-up at home, ie husband and kids, how the hell is she expected to be able to afford a home? (we're talking high-flying jobs here)
Women should get the same pay as their male counterparts in all jobs, because they deserve to escape the stereotype when they choose to. |
Legion
Posts: 3691/5657 |
Originally posted by Jei*376
PS@Legion: hence why I said int he part you quoted: "While not all women fall into this catergory in mainstream working America". No need to quote me and tout how your lazy ass get's out-worked by a woman hahaha. Good thing she does get paid as much as you. If I were your boss, I would fire your lazy ass and have that woman take your place. guaranteed, you would nut up like man after that, get your balls outta your ass and do your job like a man instead of being outworked by women. You should be ashamed of yourself to even admit that, much less practice it.
I might take offense to this but this is the same guy who says that some book is absolute irrefutable proof that a diety exists. |
Jei*376
Posts: 13/13 |
Yes, quite serious. Have you ever seen the color balck ever be called white and everyone agree? Thought not! However the fact, getting paid equal pay for equal amount of work and getting paid equal for equal work are two different things that turn the debate depending on how it is worded. If you think a Housewife should be paid like a Chemical Engineer because of equal amount of work, guess again. If you think a manager of McDonald's thinks she should be paid as much as a manager of a larger, more important global corporation, then you are asking for the wrong thing. As I stated before, I do believe women should be paid equal to me - if they work equally as hard on the same jobs. No way should a woman who scrubs floors be paid the same as the man who tells her which floors to scrub and vice-versa. If a woman makes more than a man...so be it. She obviously earned it. Oppurtunity knocks and this is a big world. I don't want my daughter coming home telling me she works at a job and does the same thing a man is doing who has the same experience level as her and hired at the same time, but he gets paid more because of his gender. that itself is the discriminatory part I will not support and don't. But I will not likewise support my daughters' endeavor if her job is not worth the pay she demands only because she feels she works harder but takes no skill and demands his type of pay. Sorry, you want the cash like him, go bust your ass like him. If he wants to be a shameful lazy idiot like what's his face calls himself up there, so be it. Then step aside and let a woman who will honor herself do what you refuse and get paid for it. That's my take on it. Equal pay = equal work, not equal amount of work. |
macks
Posts: 654/900 |
Originally posted by Jei*376
...(Socialism in English is the same in any other language....Black is black and white is white...it's the same thing)...
...and trying to make me think that Americans think of Liberlism/Socilism different from any other country (sorry, again, what's black is black and what's white is white. Whte cannot be called black and black cannot be called white. Liberlism by any other name is Socialism and a pre-cursor to Communism).
Are you being serious?
And also, I think no one here is trying to get women paid the same as men for less work. We want women to get paid equally for the same amount of work as men, which is not the case in very many work areas. An example being where Legion works, he should obviously not get paid as much as the women (or men) who work harder then him. This is not the case though. |
Jei*376
Posts: 12/13 |
Actually I had hoped that all the 'women' here who claim to espouse this Liberlism (Socialism in English is the same in any other language....Black is black and white is white...it's the same thing) that is Women's Lib should be actually doing something to intelligently conversate on this topic rather than tossing out some lame ass, half-assed reply about strawmen, charcoal suits, grey hats and trying to make me think that Americans think of Liberlism/Socilism different from any other country (sorry, again, what's black is black and what's white is white. Whte cannot be called black and black cannot be called white. Liberlism by any other name is Socialism and a pre-cursor to Communism).
I made that post and thought it would make some Women's Lib proponents see that there are guys out there who sympathize in substance some of their claims, in this case, equal pay for equal work. Now those snide, shitty comments only tell me one thing - they don't really care about equal pay because it means they gotta do equal the work. I admit I was being a bit sarcastic but hey, I have a sense of humor...sadly, Libz dont have it (and they call us Conservatives all stuffy...at least we don't whine about humor, we just don't really laugh). So there you have it. Sorry I came in and bursted the Women's Lib bubble with my 'I am man, hear me roar' comments, but I thougt intelligent convo beyond the humor was possible with the Libz....obviously, sadly, truthfully, as usual, Libz close their ears, run their mouths and keep on whining. LIBZ PERKELE!
PS@Legion: hence why I said int he part you quoted: "While not all women fall into this catergory in mainstream working America". No need to quote me and tout how your lazy ass get's out-worked by a woman hahaha. Good thing she does get paid as much as you. If I were your boss, I would fire your lazy ass and have that woman take your place. guaranteed, you would nut up like man after that, get your balls outta your ass and do your job like a man instead of being outworked by women. You should be ashamed of yourself to even admit that, much less practice it. |
Legion
Posts: 3690/5657 |
Originally posted by Jei*376
The moral of this example is simple:
While not all women fall into this catergory in mainstream working America, a majority do. I say this: If you want equal pay like men, get your sweet soft butts out there and work like one.
Most of the women I work with put forth a hell of a lot more effort than my lazy ass, and we get paid the same. |
The SomerZ
Posts: 735/862 |
Excuse me while I go put on my charcoal suit and grey hat, looks like the fifties just returned.
Oh, and equalling liberalism (yes, in the American sense of the word) to socialism is, well, silly, to say the least. |
Arwon
Posts: 278/506 |
That's one hell of a strawman. Did you build it yourself, with your MIGHTY MAN HANDS? |
Jei*376
Posts: 11/13 |
Sorry to bump this thread but since the information is of current status and not outdated like old SMW hacks or questions I figured I could post to it with my 'misogynist' views. Firstly, however, I am NOT and NEVER WILL BE a misogynist. Having said that, I am Anti-Feminist to the bone. You won't find more an anti-Feminist or Anti-Liberal period, more anti than myself. Having said that, let's do this!
I believe equal pay is for women who deserve it. Too many times I see women complain that the only jobs in the paper are for men. Well, to the women who wanna be treated and paid like a man this is for youa nd dedicated to you - There is your golden oppurtunity, Betty Boop! Show your moxy and get money! If you apply for a Warehouse who pays secretaries $7.50/hour and Truck Loaders $12.00/hour, don't bitch! You are not the ones lifting those 50-100 Lbs boxes repetetively. You lift a pen, a phone and a cup of coffee for your boss. Really hard work there. You are not the one breaking your back everyday for 8-12 hours of hard labor. The only thing you broke in your day today is a nail when you picked up the phone the wrong way. You're not wheeling heavy freight from one end of the plant to another constantly while your legs, back and feet are killing you in the heat of the warehouse. Oh, no you are busy wheeling your lazy ass in your comfortable office wheelie chair from the desk to the file cabinet in your nice, air-conditioned room, with the comfort of sitting down all day and standing to stretch as needed. As if getting up to do what you do sliding along the floor is so much for you to do that you can't unglue your ass from your chair. You don't have the loud crashing of materials falling to the floor or the loud sounds of machine blaring in your ears. You are behind sound-proof walls with Soft Rock playing on the Muzak to ease your mind. You don't have to fear losing a finger or toe or eye from a machine.In fact the only thing you can really lose is the boss' car keys when he asks for them. You don't have to fear chemical spills and burns on your side of the plant. youa re safe from that, in fact, your worst spills and burns come when you trip and spill the boss' coffeee all over, some on you! You aren't the one starving your butt off and dying of thirst with no reprieve til break by reason of all the work you are doing. No, because you have a nice Diet Coke and a sack of Twinkies at arms length to keep you going. And when they run out, you are easily able to replenish your supply and eat/drink as needed. Finally, you're not the one who has to face your ungrateful wife when your eturn from work and explain to her why you can't go to Jimmy's due to work calling you to do OT on the weekends and 10 hour shifts for the week after that! No you go home at 4:30PM sharp everyday and get to unwind in the comfort of your place and relax and eat/drink some more. Of course you turn on the TV and see that CNN is running an equality segment and right away you blast males for their insensitivity and bias of pay, rank and commission.
The moral of this example is simple:
While not all women fall into this catergory in mainstream working America, a majority do. I say this: If you want equal pay like men, get your sweet soft butts out there and work like one. Because no man is gonna give a secretary a Warehouser's pay like she is entitled to it when all she does is sit all day answering phones, plunking keys, filing data, breaking nails and popping chewing gum behind a desk while a man breaks his back in the heat and goes hungry and thirsty for the sake of his job. You want equal pay, we want you to do equal work. Get off your butt and hump those heavy boxes for 8, 10 or 12 hours in a day then you can demand equal pay. othersie, shut up and be glad you are being paid even $7.50/hour to do a job you are accustomed to. I ahve no sympathy for Feminism and it's leftist agenda. When I see women like my wife busting her butt with me in a factory and doing the same type of work I do, I will honor women more....not in the name of Feminism (screw leftists and their Socialist agendas....I am Conservative baby) but in the name equality. true equality. Because my wife is a real woman who does man's work and thus deserves a man's pay, rank and commission. And so she has my utmost respect and admiration. And I base a working woman's worth on my wife. If she can do it, as small and demure as she is, then any woman can if they wanted. Rememebr, like NOW (National Organization of Women) preaches...."we can do anything emn can do and better - no excuses, hands down, it is proven, we can". Then let's see it. Stop the leftist bitching and whining about what you don't have or think youa re entitled to and do like ym wife does....put your money where your big mouth s and prove it then! Talk is cheap! Don't sing it - Bring it! Then you will have what you ask! Fair enough? Let's hear it for those guys who bust their hump everyday regardless of conditions. How about a hand and respect for the select women who do a man's job and shuts the f*ck up about leftism and women's lib. When more women step into man's shoes and see what life is really like for us (not the easy street they think it is) then Women's Lib will be relegated to what it really is: a bunch of scorned fanatical man-hatning women who don't want equality, they want to reverse the roles with mena dn assume, not just authority and that which comes with it - oh no, those women want more....they want masterdom. Which is farther than anything equality if I ever seen it. Womens' Lib? Feminism? Socialism? Leftism? Democrats? Liberlism? Muahahahaha....get out of here and earn your rights for once! Hahaha! *laughs all the way to the bank with that* |
hhallahh
Posts: 522/607 |
Um, I'm not a "misogynist". You're not going to win any arguments by being intellectually dishonest and posing false dilemmas.
And I really don't think Summers said that. Since you're apparently unable to provide evidence otherwise, I'll continue to think that. Nothing I've read about Summers evidences at a misogynistic streak on his part. |
alte Hexe
Posts: 3245/5458 |
I don't have those links available to me currently. I had heard this second hand through people that follow the women's liberation movement very carefully and the (what I suppose misogynists like you) would call "cells" on campuses around the big schools of America. 
Edit:: Thinking on it...It might have been Cornel or one fo the former presidents. I'm not too sure right now. |
hhallahh
Posts: 521/607 |
Originally posted by Ziffski
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022205P.shtml
Um, I wanted links to where he allegedly said that women belonged in the kitchen and "men should discipline them". Unless I didn't read closely enough, it's not in here. |
Kario
Posts: 1459/2082 |
Oh goody, I guess I am the only one on the board against equal rights for genders aren't I.... |
alte Hexe
Posts: 3243/5458 |
He did it to express "free-speech" and the only schools that really accept him are the business schools and other schools at Harvard that are somewhat well known for being "boys only" clubs.
Still...I suppose that "free speech" entails going out and yelling in the face of a Jew that the Holocaust was funny...sure!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022205P.shtml
This article doesn't go in depth into his previous things. But I am glad that he has made amends to what he did. Of course, his previous comments were made while Cornel was prez of Harvard and he was a professeur. |
hhallahh
Posts: 520/607 |
Originally posted by Ziffski
Andrew: The President of Harvard has had a really mean streak with his remarks against women. Even before he got the job ACLU raised an eyebrow and didn't want to defend him when he stated that women should be in the kitchen. Not in school. That men should discipline them, etc. This is his most benign comment, but it is the one that broke the camel's back.
Link plz. |
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