Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Super Metroid Hacking owns your momma
| User | Post |
Jathys
Posts: 9/48 |
The best game that could possibly be made:
It starts easy, gets harder as you get closer to the end . . . Various secret and unnecessary paths should be incredibly difficult to manuever through, providing extra bonuses to people who can find/beat those areas.
Different endings is a great way of doing this. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 183/445 |
Oh, I am catering to the players, and I should thank you for making me aware of that. Not all players are very good with bomb jumping and wall jumping and I guess I took that for granted. I know super metroid very well and can sequence break the hell out of it with just those techniques.
So in what way am I making this for players that can't do these two tricks well? Well, originally I had planned on trying to make a work of art that would more or less cater to players such as myself (seemed logical enough). However, I want to make a hack that people will enjoy (certainly the sequence breakers would). In the end this game is going to be entirely possible to do with hardly any places where you really need to bomb jump (once twice of maybe 3 hops 'up' isn't much to ask, and it shouldn't be very frequent, I hope). The game will be entirely doable without excessive bomb jumping and wall jumping skills, and certainly nothing ridiculous like the mock ball trick which even I can't friggin do.
As I have stated two times before, the game is going to start off easy and gradually become harder. I hope to eliminate sequence breaking entirely, even though some games (like Zero Mission) actually rewarded and encouraged it (they had special ending sequences for people with very low item completion percentages, to say nothing of speed runners). I know that this may turn down a few hardcore metroid fans, but thats too damn bad. I don't want to make that kind of game for this hack (although I am dabbling with the idea of my own hack that probably will be just for me, with enough bomb and wall jumping to make you pull your hair out, not that I really expect people to play it. It would be entirely for my self).
Rest assured, the hack will be friendly at least in as much that anyone will be able to play it like normal players did super. Yes, even to the fat kids will go down this slide, as you would coin it. |
Parasyte
Posts: 350/514 |
Considering that 'sequence breaking' is almost always unintentional, I would certainly call it bad game design. If they were able to go back and patch those holes, they probably would. Retro Studios is doing it, afterall. With this in mind, you have to wonder what intentional sequence breaking really is? Well, intentionally bad game design, I suppose. "Let's create this area with an intentional glitch that can be exploited to blah, blah, blah..." What?! NO! No one intentionally creates bugs unless they work for microsoft, where later fixing those bugs will earn more profit. [But that aside...]
If you want to alienate inexperienced players, that's up to you. Most people get frustrated by those kinds of things. You know, that nagging so-close-yet-so-far-away feeling when you can't quite make it... Yeah. Hell, some people get frustrated just discussing it. (eh, Bit-Blade?)
I wonder when ROM hackers will start thinking of their 'clients' (for lack of a better word) for a change? |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 182/445 |
Meh... I should never post when I'm pissed off. It's really much better when that way.
Suffice it to say, parasyte, that I ask for you to wait and see before you make any judgements on my groups hack (and by group I don't mean tek). Obviously you have your doubts on the matter, so I will let my hack do the talking. Anything you have to say about my groups hack, please PM. As I have already said, this thread was supposed to be for me to get as much information as I could about the knowledge required in making the single beam thing and remapping buttons. I ask that we let this drop until I actually make a thread for my groups hack rather than just a specific problem/question thread that this is.
Working with me on this hack is:
Waddler-D: level design, puzzle ideas
windwaker: level design, code (best case scenario)
me: level design, pixel art, ideas
With more than one level designer we can bounce ideas off eachother and no one person will (or should) feel totally overwhelmed by the large task of level editing well. Working against eachother, in a way, will also prove to be constructive (or so I hope). |
jman2050
Posts: 83/123 |
Wait wait, why does your previous post give me the vibe that you're decrying the level design of the entire Metroid series? I recall many places in SM where near-impossible timing and precision could be used to get early items and such. Are you saying that's bad level design despite the fact that it is 100% optional and that an inexperienced player does nto have to worry himself to complete the task?
Unless you're speaking in a more specific sense, perhaps saying that entire areas shouldn't be reachable ONLY by some special trick. While I agree with the fact that it shouldn't be overwhelmingly difficult (in SM, I believe the general concensus of the 'line' where harder tricks become near impossible as opposed to difficult is either bomb jumping across the water-filled room before the large room with the grapple blocks leading to the wrecked ship, or climbing Mt 'Death' without the gravity suit. Most bomb jumping and wall jumping exercises are easy enough for even inexperienced players), what is required is up to the discretion of the designer. I don't see as the all-encompassing game-breaker you are makign it out to be, though if there was some other point in your argument that you made too subtle I didn't see it, tell me. |
Parasyte
Posts: 349/514 |
Wrong. I understand exactly what your point is. You don't understand mine. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 180/445 |
Parasyte, You utterly fail at paying attention to most of my posts. And I asked you nicely to leave it at that if you had nothing to say about my remapping question.
Yes, my mind does change. While I envision this hack to be difficult, it will not, read this, be difficult in the begining. it will be a gradual thing. Second, the sequence breaking skills would only be useful for getting expansions early, never important items any earlier than you are supposed to. Basically, it rewards players who can bomb jump and wall jump by getting these missles and/or super missle expansions earlier than normal. Normal meaning whenn you back track and get the Screw Attack or Speed Booster.
I realize that I talk a lot when I write but I am getting fed up with you not understanding any word I say other than 'difficult' and 'sequence breaking'. No, I'm not trying to scare away players, and no, I am not trying to make this hack cheap, or extremely hard in that way. The difficulty will lie mostly in the puzzles, and even THEN that will not be every room in the game. Here and there in Areas players will be faced with puzzles that get ever more intricate as your progress. Players will have to really think about these to get through them (or at least so I hope). I want this game to frustrate people, but not because it's cheap or because someone can't wall jump and bomb jump. How many times have metroid games frustrated me? Or zelda games? Ocarina of time pissed me off grandly, yet it's still a magnificient game. That is what I am aiming for. Puzzles. Now, are you going to harrang me for this too? Are puzzles far to much for players to withstand? Are intricate puzzles too cheap? |
Waddler-D
Posts: 347/442 |
Parasyte, I think Bit has made it clear that he's not going to use bomb and wall jumping as means of progress in the hack... All he said was that veterans could use these to get some items like Missiles, Super Missiles, etc. earlier than you could normally... Geez, that's like been a case with the original. In FACT, you could get the normal items by these techniques. We're trying to FIX that in this hack, so that Samus won't have some powerbombs before fighting Kraid or something crazy like that, alright!? |
Parasyte
Posts: 348/514 |
I guess I'm on a mission to make you aware of the problems I foresee. Even if you have only a single place that requires some 'very special' trick, extremely precise timing, or taking advantage of a bug, you are inviting disaster. It is terrible game design, and should not be done under any circumstances, even if it's not a required part of completing the game (secret areas, or such). If you want a secret area, make it difficult to reach, sure. But don't go out of your way to make it impossible for inexperienced players. That's the point I have been trying to make.
Since you stated that you want to make this hack "very difficult" I can only assume reaching secret areas will be on the order of impossible. Because what level of difficulty comes after "very difficult"? That's right! "Almost impossible". |
Jathys
Posts: 8/48 |
multi-beam disabling = possible, but unnecessary... weaken the multi-beam
wall jumping = I may be putting in a "fix" for this in my hack... limiting how many times you can jump off a wall
bomb jumping = may be putting in a fix for that cheat as well (or making it harder to do)
I tell you what I'm putting in my hack, because I do plan on making some/most of the scripts available for general use. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 179/445 |
There is a difference between talking about super metroid and tlaking about ones hack. I was depending on that to be obvious enough. I was more answering some of squash monsters general questions right there, really.
I will state this then as explicitly as I can. Large amounts of bomb jumping will in no way be necesary. There will be areas where it is entirely possible, yes, but the ONLY thing bomb jumping would be needed for is getting a head start on these items. In short, I will be lightly rewarding those that can bomb jump by having a few energy tanks and differing expansions up in places you can't normally reach. Think of that as an early start to getting some items you would be able to get with space jump, anyway.
EDIT: Ha, indeed! I have learned to recognize what LC_LZ5 compression graphics look like in hex. I have (almost) zeroed in on exactly where and what the cratera tileset are hidden. The offset for these tiles is around $1D4900-1D5000 (large margin of error, there. The correct offset seems to be more around $1D4950)
 |
Black Lord
Posts: 221/453 |
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
Bomb jumping isn't all that hard if you can manage to be patient with it *coughsavestatescough*.
I don't know what's about misunderstanding... but that's a bit misleading there.
If you make a Metroid hack... don't just throw some random pile together. Actually take some time and do some decent work on it. I have one laying around here somewhere, and even tho I'm no where near done, it has loads of potential. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 178/445 |
Originally posted by Parasyte
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
Bomb jumping isn't all that hard if you can manage to be patient with it *coughsavestatescough*.
NEVER create your hacks (or homebrews) specifically for emulators. Always strive to get your creations working properly on actual hardware. And don't require BS like savestates that can't be done on hardware.
You are TOTALLY missing the bloody point, Parasyte. That's exactly what I'm striving to avoid. No savestate happy hack is fun, no insanely cheap level design where you make one little mistake and you're fucked is fun. I apologize if in my posts I have made it so easy to misinterpret my words, but it almost seems as if you are intentionally misunderstanding me. Are my posts that ambigious?
And KP, if you mean triple bomb jump (fall and rise and fall and rise) I figured that one out on my own long ago. It is VERY hard, though. One big mistake in bomb placement and down you go.
One final point. This thread was primarily supposed to be for people that cared to help give me a boost in effecting these ASM changes (among other things). So far all I have gotten are opinions about it, and comments of the hack itself. Save your concerns for when I make a thread about the hack itself (yes, I know the thread title is misleading) instead of maligning the idea of my hack with your misgivings. Most of you have yet to even hear the theme of this hack yet (which I am sure Parasyte disagrees with XD). |
KP9000
Posts: 201/261 |
Heh, this will be good competition with MY Super Metroid group hack on TEK! Of course, I will help you out with some things every now and then when you ask. If you are a member of TEK, come and join!
Anyways, the bomb jump took me all of 5 mins to master. Another 5 mins and I figured out how to time my bombs right and gain altitude 4 times as fast as the original fashion! If you need a .zmv of it being performed, PM me here or on TEK. |
Parasyte
Posts: 330/514 |
Originally posted by Bit-Blade
Bomb jumping isn't all that hard if you can manage to be patient with it *coughsavestatescough*.
NEVER create your hacks (or homebrews) specifically for emulators. Always strive to get your creations working properly on actual hardware. And don't require BS like savestates that can't be done on hardware. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 177/445 |
After a little investigation I found that B is run, A is jump, Y is item cancel and X is shoot.
I happen to like the a lot of the features in metroid fusion, but I don't necesarilly want to hack it (is there even an editor? level editing in hex sounds like a pain. No, I am not hardcore enough to want to deal with that). I am a pixel artist, not a programmer. Yes... one would definitely need an editor. They speed up the hacking process greatly.
Yes, the wave freeze could be a problem, but you know what? I don't have to design a single puzzle that would require it, so in the end that brings it right back down to where I wanted it. You are right about the boss hp, though. It would more than likely need to be toned down to some degree. And since when do you battle bosses with just your beams anyway? I've almost always had a use for my missles and super missles.
So here's how it's going to play out. Item cancel is going to get the shaft. It's Y button will be remapped to cycling through the beams (as well as all that other fun stuff). Autorun doesn't even need to be added at all. The only reason I considered it at all is because it's a convenient way to free up a button. The metroid fusion team didn't really have much of a choice, they had to think of SOME way to make the game have all these features with less buttons than super metroid had. |
MathOnNapkins
Posts: 1528/2189 |
I don't like the idea of holding X and then pushing a direction to switch beams, (though I am opposed to single beams in general), for how are you supposed to switch beams while moving then? One of the great things about super metroid is that it is very unrestrictive of one action restricting another, except in obvious cases.
If you all are looking for features that are found in Fusion or Zero Mission, such as the auto run, why not just hack those games? In fact, according to Jigglysaint, I think they're actually much easier to hack, you'd just need to make an editor.
As far as using singleton beams, it would actually make the game less strategic. Say you design a puzzle that requires ice + wave combo, but which plasma would ruin if you added it. Stuff like that. You couldn't so something like that if you restricted to just one beam. In addition, bosses HP would have to be scaled down b/c the only beam that does anything near significant damage on its own is the Plasma beam. |
Squash Monster
Posts: 538/677 |
On the topic of changing the button layout -- I actually planned the mapping out quite some time ago. I never actually did it because the hack would've been way beyond my level.
New layout --
B -- Fire beam
A -- Jump
X -- Switch beam -- Hold X and press a direction to switch to one of the other beams. Hold X and let go to switch to normal beam. Hold X and press L to switch to grapple beam.
Y -- Fire missile/Fire super missile(when beam is charged)/Power bomb(when ball)
L -- Hold still (to aim)
R -- Run (though honestly, I think you should make it automatic like in the GBA ones)
Select -- Turn on/off X-Ray scope
Start -- Menu
There's lots of these that you could re-arange or use for different things too: L and R could both be used for aim if you auto-ran, select could be used for all manner of things if you ditched the crappy scope (or made it switch like a beam). If you didn't want to use the charge combo version of super missiles, you could use any of the freed up buttons to fire them. |
Bit-Blade
Posts: 176/445 |
Oi... you guys worry too much. Bomb jumping will only really be of advantage to you if you wish to grab those last extra missles early.
You guys must not be reading my posts. I said 1) There was going be a learning curve in the begning and things will gradullay get harder and 2)although this wasn't directly stated, it was never my intention to have save states be a requirement for some parts of the hack. Sure, they might HELP but you should well be able to handle the game normally wihtout too much trouble. I yes. I also said I wasn't rely on BUGS but actual abilities that the programers gave samus. Bomb jumping isn't a bug, nor is shinesparking or wall jumping. Any skilled super metroid player should be well familiar with these. |
jman2050
Posts: 82/123 |
Rule of thumb: if you need more than the occasional flurry of save states to complete a game, it's too hard. No need to make moves like the wall jump and bomb jump required, that's one of the trends I'm really starting to hate in SM hacks. If you want people to employ the wall jump and bomb jump, make it optional, unless you make it VERY CLEAR when you play the hack that they need to know common sequence breaking techniques.
And for the record, I'm even considering removing the wall jump and bomb jump from my hack, if only for a temporary time... |
| This is a long thread. Click here to view it. |
|
hukka
