Points of Required Attention™
Please chime in on a proposed restructuring of the ROM hacking sections.
Views: 88,481,018
 Main | FAQ | Uploader | IRC chat | Radio | Memberlist | Active users | Latest posts | Calendar | Stats | Online users | Search 04-25-24 09:06 AM
Guest: Register | Login

0 users currently in The Landfill | 3 guests

Main - The Landfill - Where is the legal line? New thread | Thread closed


Pierre
Posted on 06-11-12 07:15 AM Link | Quote | ID: 151293


Micro-Goomba
Level: 11

Posts: 12/18
EXP: 5036
Next: 949

Since: 05-28-12

Last post: 4331 days
Last view: 4331 days 		Before I go too far down the wrong path on the project I'm on, what is the legal line for a hack?

I've seen stressed many places that roms cannot be distributed, and patched roms cannot be distributed. The IPS patches without the roms are useless, and it seems there are no problems there.

1. What about derivative works. Lets say for example that I export the graphics from a rom, and them use them for something. When I distribute it, it does not contain the graphics, only a standalone program that strips what is needed from the rom. Would this still be legal?

2. If that is acceptable, let me take it a bit further. Lets say that while the graphics are easy to export, the sequences that define sprite animation are not, and it needs to be reconstructed from assembly. This means that the standalone utility that strips data from the rom, would need to be able to parse the assembly code (hard) or would need to already contain information from the rom in order for the sprites to be animated. Since it is still useless without the rom, if it is contained is this still legal?

3. Now to consider special items. Recreating what an item does would require either parsing the assembly code to see what it does, or playing the game and experimenting to see what it does. Either way, the easiest result is most likely more hardcoded values in the standalone utility to extract what is needed from the rom.

I guess the bottom line is does everything that is taken from a rom need to come from the rom on the fly, or as long as the important bits come from the rom (graphics, data where possible), would this still be acceptable? Since there would be so much content missing without the extract from the rom, my gut tells me that it would be ok. And it could be taken a step farther, the utility could be designed such that if the rom is not present, it doesn't output anything, including data that would be hardcoded inside it.

If this answer to this is no, its not legal, I'll have a fun program at the end of the day that I cannot distribute. (And I'll save my time trying to write an extractor for things, just hack it so it works.)

Xeruss
Posted on 06-11-12 07:22 AM Link | Quote | ID: 151295


Sledge Brother
Compromised account.
Level: 86

Posts: 1761/1815
EXP: 6125252
Next: 16855

Since: 02-19-07
From: Oregon

Last post: 1812 days
Last view: 1811 days
Well, laws tend to vary from country to country. But if you post a program that functions like that here, it's not going to get deleted.
If you dig deep enough, there are files uploaded here that tread legal ambiguity further than anything you described. I can't speak for the other administration (I've been largely absent lately) but I wouldn't interfere with a release like that.

____________________
Design © 2009 Stark
Once for the Super Dave TV show I was the stuntman that fell down the entire wtc stairwell. ~ jargon

Pierre
Posted on 06-11-12 07:28 AM Link | Quote | ID: 151296


Micro-Goomba
Level: 11

Posts: 13/18
EXP: 5036
Next: 949

Since: 05-28-12

Last post: 4331 days
Last view: 4331 days 		Well that much is good to hear.

I guess the last part of my fear is likelihood of a cease and desist letter. I don't want to die the same death as Chrono Trigger Resurrection. (Though I would be terribly surprised if my project gained anywhere near the attention that that one did.)

puzzledude
Posted on 06-11-12 12:23 PM (rev. 2 of 06-11-12 12:26 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 151299


Porcupo
Level: 39

Posts: 191/302
EXP: 371129
Next: 33642

Since: 08-16-10

Last post: 2273 days
Last view: 2273 days 		It is not allowed to put roms, wads and isos to public sites or to sell redone carts. Some stricter sites, that are dedicated to only discuss original Nintendo work, wont for instance even allow screenshot of the modified rom to be published. They called a program to edit the rom an "illegal program". But on most sites IPS files and screen shots are allowed as long as they dont include the rom.

Gfx, sprite animation and special items are a part of the rom, thus the rom itself. They are also owned by the company. The hardcoded data, that cant be accessed is still basically a rom. An IPS file that contains most of the rom is still considered as not allowed, despite the fact that you cant run it. Thus the IPS file must contain only the changes between original and modified rom.


NightKev
Posted on 06-11-12 12:49 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151300


Cape Luigi
Level: 131

Posts: 4763/4792
EXP: 26227775
Next: 196845

Since: 03-15-07

Last post: 3733 days
Last view: 3645 days
puzzledude, you kind of missed the point here; most of that is irrelevant/tangential to his question(s).

Basically, anything that is your own code is fully legal, no worries. Distributing data from the rom itself is bad in most cases, though certain situation probably exist where you're fine with distributing certain parts, but don't count on it.

____________________

Lunaria
Posted on 06-11-12 12:59 PM (rev. 2 of 06-11-12 01:25 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 151301


Deddorokku
Princess of the Night
Level: 47

Posts: 365/442
EXP: 735975
Next: 30228

Since: 02-21-07
From: Equestria

Last post: 3702 days
Last view: 2065 days
Oh look, it's this thread again. ._.

Too clarify my post: Everyone tends to go ape shit when talking about this subject in general. But to answer your post in relation to board 2: You can post anything here that you made yourself, obviously. We don't do ROM distribution but that does not mean you can't post resources you think will help hackers. In such cases one would have to judge with logic if it's reasonable to distribute it or not.

____________________
The fun has been doubled!

MiniCompute
Posted on 06-11-12 02:17 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151302


Bubble
Level: 66

Posts: 221/981
EXP: 2421252
Next: 40599

Since: 04-25-07

Last post: 488 days
Last view: 697 days
Posted by Pierre
Well that much is good to hear.

I guess the last part of my fear is likelihood of a cease and desist letter. I don't want to die the same death as Chrono Trigger Resurrection. (Though I would be terribly surprised if my project gained anywhere near the attention that that one did.)


, let me say it differently, if nintendo/sega etc sees your hack rom and its not making any profit, they won't attempt to contact you about it.
If your hack is drawing away attention from their recent release of a game, they will contact you and such said site and have it shut down.

They will give you a few small warnings before they attempt legal actions against you.

Anything in ips format and not causing a problem for the game makers they don't care much about it.

Now anyworks that you edit, modifie or recreate, you still have to always give credit back to the original game maker.
Lets face facts here, your not the one who design the characters or games that your hacking, so pretty much you have no say so on whats yours legally.

If the game maker were to give us the go ahead and let us dismantle the game legally without worry, that would be a good year for all.

I have spoken with nintendo about this off and on, pretty they are concerned about the loss of profits and even good hacks by people to earn them a good buck to be sold to millions of people.

Sorry, I said all that, but its pretty much complicated for right now.

Lunaria
Posted on 06-11-12 02:42 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151303


Deddorokku
Princess of the Night
Level: 47

Posts: 366/442
EXP: 735975
Next: 30228

Since: 02-21-07
From: Equestria

Last post: 3702 days
Last view: 2065 days
Posted by MikeFuryXP
Lets face facts here, your not the one who design the characters or games that your hacking, so pretty much you have no say so on whats yours legally.
That's a lie, please don't give legal advice if you don't know what you're talking about. ._.

Anything you yourself make (unless you lose the rights to it) you own. What this means is that if you do level a level design only hack for say SMW, you own that level design. This is why distribution in patch form is popular, since you're only handing out what you yourself made.

No one else could go about and try and sell this design that you made, regardless of the need for the rest of the game code. To put it plainly, a hack (in ROM format) is not owned by neither part, but rather, both. Therefore, neither would be able to profit on it unless a deal is made among both (or more) parts. Of course, it's even more complicated then what I said, but this is not what this thread is for.

____________________
The fun has been doubled!

MiniCompute
Posted on 06-11-12 03:22 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151304


Bubble
Level: 66

Posts: 222/981
EXP: 2421252
Next: 40599

Since: 04-25-07

Last post: 488 days
Last view: 697 days
Posted by Lunaria
Posted by MikeFuryXP
Lets face facts here, your not the one who design the characters or games that your hacking, so pretty much you have no say so on whats yours legally.
That's a lie, please don't give legal advice if you don't know what you're talking about. ._.

Anything you yourself make (unless you lose the rights to it) you own. What this means is that if you do level a level design only hack for say SMW, you own that level design. This is why distribution in patch form is popular, since you're only handing out what you yourself made.

No one else could go about and try and sell this design that you made, regardless of the need for the rest of the game code. To put it plainly, a hack (in ROM format) is not owned by neither part, but rather, both. Therefore, neither would be able to profit on it unless a deal is made among both (or more) parts. Of course, it's even more complicated then what I said, but this is not what this thread is for.


Prove that to me this week, call nintendo themselves and ask them about it.
I'll say it for the final time, you touch the game "super metroid" you rework everything in it including the coding and its still not yours legally which is your hack.

You were not the original copy-right author or producer for that game, so you have no right to speak about it, ever!

I think 4 major game makers and more would say a whole lot differently with a legal team against you behind closed doors.

Please look at my post again and noticed how I said ips patches are safe for now.

Lunaria
Posted on 06-11-12 03:56 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151305


Deddorokku
Princess of the Night
Level: 47

Posts: 367/442
EXP: 735975
Next: 30228

Since: 02-21-07
From: Equestria

Last post: 3702 days
Last view: 2065 days
Oh, so you have a degree in law then, or so I assume?

Since after all, you seem dead set in that you're right here. And your terrible sentence constructions don't really help in making your point(s) understood, if I may add.

Whatever, neither of us are expert at laws here, let's leave it at that and be over with the derail.

____________________
The fun has been doubled!

KP9000
Posted on 06-11-12 05:35 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151309


Boomboom

Level: 90

Posts: 1954/1975
EXP: 6952755
Next: 235854

Since: 02-19-07

Last post: 3579 days
Last view: 3203 days


Posted by MikeFuryXP
Posted by Lunaria
Posted by MikeFuryXP
Lets face facts here, your not the one who design the characters or games that your hacking, so pretty much you have no say so on whats yours legally.
That's a lie, please don't give legal advice if you don't know what you're talking about. ._.

Anything you yourself make (unless you lose the rights to it) you own. What this means is that if you do level a level design only hack for say SMW, you own that level design. This is why distribution in patch form is popular, since you're only handing out what you yourself made.

No one else could go about and try and sell this design that you made, regardless of the need for the rest of the game code. To put it plainly, a hack (in ROM format) is not owned by neither part, but rather, both. Therefore, neither would be able to profit on it unless a deal is made among both (or more) parts. Of course, it's even more complicated then what I said, but this is not what this thread is for.


Prove that to me this week, call nintendo themselves and ask them about it.
I'll say it for the final time, you touch the game "super metroid" you rework everything in it including the coding and its still not yours legally which is your hack.

You were not the original copy-right author or producer for that game, so you have no right to speak about it, ever!

I think 4 major game makers and more would say a whole lot differently with a legal team against you behind closed doors.

Please look at my post again and noticed how I said ips patches are safe for now.
If you make something, it's yours. If the material/medium you used to make it is someone else's, your creation is an idea and therefore yours. You may be obligated to credit someone else for said use of the medium, or be subject to legal action should you violate some EULA or otherwise. This is a hairy world we live in nowadays when it comes to laws and rights. Your arrogance makes you believe you're right, to the point of defending yourself in a manner that is quite stuck-up and outright rude. Fortunately, in this case, you now look like a complete douchebag who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. If you're going to go on this way with an attitude like that, you probably just shouldn't post.

____________________

MiniCompute
Posted on 06-11-12 05:47 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151310


Bubble
Level: 66

Posts: 223/981
EXP: 2421252
Next: 40599

Since: 04-25-07

Last post: 488 days
Last view: 697 days 		I have already looked at what nintendo has to say about roms, hackings and everything related to it.
I am going by what they say, I wont argue with you or cryshi about it on the matter.
If I am wrong so be it and I'll accept it, if it proves to be different by a valid source then that proves to you and anyone else I am not lying.

"Douchebag" ? KP900, you don't even know me that well enough or care enough to even at chat with me about anything.

Now I could get quite ugly with you upfront and personal but I have nothing against you and I respect you to a certain point.
So don't push me too far yet, unless I did something to you personally.

Cryshi, said drop it on the subject so I respect her wishes.



Lunaria
Posted on 06-11-12 05:48 PM Link | Quote | ID: 151311


Deddorokku
Princess of the Night
Level: 47

Posts: 370/442
EXP: 735975
Next: 30228

Since: 02-21-07
From: Equestria

Last post: 3702 days
Last view: 2065 days
I thought I made it perfectly clear this derail was over?

____________________
The fun has been doubled!

Main - The Landfill - Where is the legal line? New thread | Thread closed

Acmlmboard 2.1+4δ (2023-01-15)
© 2005-2023 Acmlm, blackhole89, Xkeeper et al.

Page rendered in 0.025 seconds. (321KB of memory used)
MySQL - queries: 97, rows: 118/119, time: 0.017 seconds.