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04-25-24 06:57 AM |
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| Main - ROM Hacking - Mega Man 7 editor and general hacking | New thread | New reply |
| Parasyte |
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 Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 13/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
I have been working on a Mega Man 7 editor for quite some time. Rather that regurgitate the history of the project, you can read about it here: http://www.kodewerx.org/wiki/index.php/Syndrome
Some interesting points about this editor: * It's open source (the most recent source code snapshots are available right now: http://hg.kodewerx.org/syndrome) * It's written for XULRunner (the same technologies powering Firefox) * Its application logic is written entirely in JavaScript (for now; eventually it will be necessary to rewrite some of the CPU-intensive parts in C++) * It's fully cross-platform; tested and running on Mac OS X, Windows XP, and Linux (Ubuntu). * It can read the Mega Man 7 US ROM with or without an SMC header. The SNES ROM lib I've been writing handles LoROM and HiROM mapping modes. * It supports opening zipped ROMs directly (PKZIP only! not 7zip or any other archive formats) Planned features include: * Non-destructive editing (NDE) - all changes will be possible to undo. Even after saving and closing the project. This will be done with a well-balanced mix of XML files (to keep track of what's been worked on) and UPS format patches (the actual "hack" itself). The idea is to never write directly to the ROM file, but to handle cases where a hacked ROM can be loaded into the editor. * "Saving" your project will save changes as a UPS format patch file, which will be loadable with emulators supporting the format, and directly distributable on the internet. * Intuitive editor UI that keeps information overload to a minimum; no more pop-up windows! (or at least keep them to an absolute minimum) Pop-ups are bad for the internet, and they are bad for desktop applications, as well. Support for multiple user paradigms; keyboard-driven, point-n-click-driven, drag-n-drop-driven ... * Internationalized! It is very simple to translate the UI into any language! Coding experience not required. Syndrome looks like this: Mac OS X 10.5 
Ubuntu 8.10 
Windows XP SP2 
Syndrome currently has no UI, and no editing capability.  Something I really need to work on before this becomes usable. It does show some promise, however. Considering I've only been working on it for a few hours each night, I think it is progressing along quite quickly.
Objects are currently read and parsed, but the data is not 100% deciphered. The editor can draw a cross-hair and index number on the map in the correct location, but the only way to tell what it's supposed to be is by looking at the remaining "unknown" data for each object. The objects are capable of changing background palettes and tile sets when Mega Man "touches" them. For these kinds of objects, Mega Man may not have to exactly touch them, but just pass over the X- or Y-coordinate where they live (not verified). The first palette-changing object in the intro stage is object #9. Objects also describe enemies. The first "Bunby Tank" enemy in the intro stage is object #12. Most enemies are sprites (OAM), some are SNES background layers (e.g Intro stage object #19; Mad Grinder). Objects also transform the stage itself. A few good examples of this kind of object are objects #1, #2, and #3 in the intro stage; these create the first "unstable road" blocks that stop Auto. Syndrome can export rendered stages to PNG. Note that the rendering engine is incomplete. Palettes and tiles are incorrect in some locations. Here's a list of exported stages: http://parasyte.kodewerx.org/projects/syndrome/stages/2009-03-07/ - First exports http://parasyte.kodewerx.org/projects/syndrome/stages/2009-03-10/ - Exports with object notations Object tile sets are not resolved or loaded, yet. I've found a good portion of the assembler routines which handle it, but not everything. The first sprite tile set loaded for the intro level is at ROM file (without SMC header) address 0x1BBBE. The five bytes here describe the tile set: byte-0: tile data length (shift this byte left by 4 to get actual length; if zero, stop processing) byte-1, byte-2, byte-3: ROM pointer to actual tile data byte-4: destination offset and end-flag (high bit set indicates processing end, mask lower 7 bits and shift left by 8 to get actual destination offset) Taking this specific data for example: 3C 40 49 DA 80 Data Length: $03C0 Data Source: $DA4940 (translates to file address 0x1A4940) Data Destination Offset: $0000 (equates to VRAM location $6000) End of sprite tile data. When the end-flag is not set, the game engine processes the next five bytes to load more tile data. The "battle plan" goes something like this: the editor needs a UI. Some ideas of mine are available on the Kodewerx Wiki (aka "Kwiki"), linked at the top of this post. It then needs to support fully non-destructive editing. (NDE is popular in photo editors like Photoshop and in many video and audio editors as well. This is usually done by abstracting the editing process with "imaginary" layers.) To be a complete editor, it needs to handle all objects properly, especially in regard to objects which modify stage design/layout and general game play. These may be the most difficult to deal with since Syndrome wants to display the full stage for editing, rather than working on one screen at a time (like most Mega Man editors do). If anyone is interested in helping (with data or coding -- come on, it's JavaScript! It's dead simple to work on!) just post here and we'll see if we can get you setup to work on it. As an aside, please keep in mind that I'm not familiar with the Mega Man series, much less Mega Man 7. The enemy names listed here came from Wikia Gaming. Compare the Syndrome-rendered stages to the rips available at the The Video Game Atlas Edit: Made some minor adjustments for clarification. |
| Kawa |
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 CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!! 80's Cheerilee is best pony Level: 138 Posts: 1630/5344 EXP: 30941996 Next: 720985 Since: 02-20-07 From: The Netherlands Last post: 4497 days Last view: 2632 days |
This almost made me wet my pants. ____________________ Wife make lunch - Shampoo Opera - give it a spin Spare some of your free time? <GreyMaria> I walked around the Lake so many goddamn times that my sex drive was brutally murdered Kawa rocks  — byuu |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 14/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
Another thing I forgot to mention about objects: they also control the scroll stops and scroll direction changes. These work similar to the tile set/palette handling objects; the game engine compares one or both of Mega Man's coordinates to the object.
It's fairly easy to guess which ones do these things just by playing through the game (or watching a video) while looking at the Syndrome renders for comparison. |
| Kawa |
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CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!! 80's Cheerilee is best pony Level: 138 Posts: 1645/5344 EXP: 30941996 Next: 720985 Since: 02-20-07 From: The Netherlands Last post: 4497 days Last view: 2632 days |
I just took the time to actually read your post in detail, and I can see why it has the Firefox icon now. Still, doesn't mean the editor can't be as bad as that would imply to me and my friends. It's still very impressive. The non-destructive editing sounds somewhat revolutionary in the romhacking scene, correct me if I'm wrong. ____________________ Wife make lunch - Shampoo Opera - give it a spin Spare some of your free time? <GreyMaria> I walked around the Lake so many goddamn times that my sex drive was brutally murdered Kawa rocks — byuu |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 15/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
I don't know about revolutionary. Just my opinion on how an editor should work.
So do you dislike Firefox? The editor does not run in Firefox or anything like that. It just runs on the same runtime platform that Firefox does. And the same one that Thunderbird runs on, and Open Komodo, and Pidgin... Since it's open source and written in standard web languages, I think it would be a pretty nice tool to get other developers started with their own editors. (Without resorting to .NET, which has almost zero cross-platform specialization.) But then again, this thread is about Mega Man 7, and as I was saying in the original post, the tile set data for sprites is still not completely known. I've found the length/source/destination data, but haven't yet found where it gets indexed from (though I have a lead). There also seems to be another "destination offset" that gets used before the DMA is started. That needs some more investigation. The editor strictly uses pointer tables to load stages. For example, here's the list of pointer tables it uses, from yesterday's snapshot. You might notice those are SNES HiROM pointers. The editor uses SNES memory mapping internally to make it nice and easy to navigate pointer tables directly. All of those pointers points to a pointer table. (Confusion sets in?) The pointer tables are nice because they can be indexed with some known value, like the stage number. Something similar is needed to map the object data (mm7Editor.PTR_OBJECTS) to a tile set. I have an idea that object #0 is typically Mega Man. (I say typically, because the objects seem to be ordered first horizontally, then vertically. That means, any object that has a lower X-coordinate (or equal X- but lower Y-coordinate) than Mega Man, should also have a lower index.) It's probably a good idea to begin tracing from object #0 reads, which may shed some light on what I'm missing. |
| Kawa |
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CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!! 80's Cheerilee is best pony Level: 138 Posts: 1684/5344 EXP: 30941996 Next: 720985 Since: 02-20-07 From: The Netherlands Last post: 4497 days Last view: 2632 days |
Off topic: I indeed don't like Firefox, but that should say nothing about XULRunner. Just to clear that up.
Somewhat more on topic: am I correct if I say the sprites are assembled from a bunch of loose limbs? They seem kinda recognizable to me, at least... At any rate, NDE is a very good idea and I share your opinion on it. ____________________ Wife make lunch - Shampoo Opera - give it a spin Spare some of your free time? <GreyMaria> I walked around the Lake so many goddamn times that my sex drive was brutally murdered Kawa rocks — byuu |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 17/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
I'm not entirely sure how sprites/OAM are assembled. I haven't actually looked at the data, just been screwing with the assembler for a bit. It's a big pain because Geiger's SNES9x debugger (to put it bluntly) sucks the big one. |
| Jigglysaint |
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 Red Paragoomba Level: 20 Posts: 40/62 EXP: 38536 Next: 3903 Since: 04-04-07 Last post: 4616 days Last view: 2353 days |
Need me to find anything? It sounds to me that MM7 might actually share a similarity to Megaman X. Any idea how the level order is loaded yet? |
| koala_knight |
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 Buzzy Beetle Level: 44 Posts: 286/384 EXP: 591183 Next: 20102 Since: 06-01-07 From: Miami Last post: 4124 days Last view: 4112 days |
IIRC, MM7 has a sprite viewer built into it that can be accessed via a special password or gamegenie code. At any rate this sprite viewer might be useful for finding object data and OAM stuff.
Posted by "TheMechanicalManiacs.com" |
| Kawa |
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CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!! 80's Cheerilee is best pony Level: 138 Posts: 1704/5344 EXP: 30941996 Next: 720985 Since: 02-20-07 From: The Netherlands Last post: 4497 days Last view: 2632 days |
Posted by koala_knightI remember trying that thing. I think a small drawing lag tipped me off to the nature of the sprites. ____________________ Wife make lunch - Shampoo Opera - give it a spin Spare some of your free time? <GreyMaria> I walked around the Lake so many goddamn times that my sex drive was brutally murdered Kawa rocks — byuu |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 18/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
Posted by Jigglysaint Yeah, figure out those first three bytes in the object definitions (see mm7.js) 
Posted by Jigglysaint The games bear a passing similarity, at least. Since Mega Man 7 was a much later game than Mega Max X, it's probably likely that MM7 and MMX3 are more closely related. Posted by Jigglysaint You mean the physical stage order? Yes! All stages are ordered based on the pointer tables. The Syndrome source code is the best source of info for that. But here's a quick breakdown of each index in those tables: 0x00: Intro stage 0x01: Freeze Man's stage 0x02: Cloud Man's stage 0x03: Junk Man's stage 0x04: Turbo Man's stage 0x05: Slash Man's stage 0x06: Shade Man's stage 0x07: Burst Man's stage 0x08: Spring Man's stage 0x09: Robot Museum 0x0A: Wily's Fortress 1 0x0B: Wily's Fortress 2 0x0C: Wily's Fortress 3 0x0D: Wily's Fortress 4 |
| Jigglysaint |
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Red Paragoomba Level: 20 Posts: 41/62 EXP: 38536 Next: 3903 Since: 04-04-07 Last post: 4616 days Last view: 2353 days |
I should have clarified. When I mean level order, I meant how each level's map screens are loaded. For example, in Megaman X3, it can get one screen at a time, or load a chunk of it at once. This is unlike tradditional Megaman games where screens are loaded sequentially. The X games use scroll boundries that are triggered when X reaches certain points. The NES games reads a scroll index that includes the amount of screens before a scroll. Basically I am asking if 7 does the former or the latter.
As for object data, sure I can try. Just give me an offset to work with. We are talking sprites right? Edit: Just from pictures, I can see that it's exactly like X3. This means that logically, a sprite controls the scrolling, and there is data somewhere that tells what each index does. That also means that more than likely, the sprite data is similar in structure. That means it's coded top to bottom, left to right, and it contrains compressed co-ordinate values. Hell, you might as well just make a Megaman X3 editor while you are at it. |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 19/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
That was pretty much what we discussed last night; the games are similar enough that the editor could handle them both with just some minor changes.
I prefer using the term "object" in this game (or series of games using this game engine) because, as you said, they aren't all sprites. Some objects act as events or control points. Thus, nothing for the SNES to render on screen using OAM. But this is little more than a pet peeve, really. One thing you mentioned was that X3's maps are compressed. ("Maps" meaning the array of room numbers ... or the 'highest level' of stage data required to render a stage.) MM7 uses no compression on this array. Were you planning to document all object classes, types, and arguments? If you needed some help with that, I could probably pitch in. Having that info would be at least enough for me to fix some of the rendering bugs in the editor. Namely palette and tile swaps. Some other things to keep in mind are: loading OAM tile sets, tile maps, and palettes for sprite objects; background layer priorities (see: Mad Grinder intro stage mini boss ... He is rendered in the background layer, which is moved to the foreground by a special object and then moved back to the background by another object); etc. |
| AlexAR |
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 Koopa Account taken over, please contact admins to reclaim Level: 27 Posts: 118/119 EXP: 102801 Next: 13358 Since: 02-22-07 From: El Paso, TX Last post: 3029 days Last view: 3029 days |
I tried getting your editor set up but I keep getting "Error: couldn't parse application.ini
Setting it up in general seems very complicated, how do you suggest the easiest way to do it is? |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 20/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
* Download the most recent .zip and extract it to a directory that is easily accessible (e.g. C:\syndrome\)
* Install Firefox 3, if you haven't, already * Start -> Run * Type the following:
At some point, I will have to create an installer and proper XULRunner application package. (Right now, it's not even packaged. !) Doing that would make the user experience slightly better, but it would be harder on potential developers. |
| Kawa |
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CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!! 80's Cheerilee is best pony Level: 138 Posts: 1756/5344 EXP: 30941996 Next: 720985 Since: 02-20-07 From: The Netherlands Last post: 4497 days Last view: 2632 days |
It'd be nice if you did. I'd hate to have to install a webbrowser just to use something that doesn't even have a single thing to do with webbrowsing.
It doesn't, does it? ____________________ Wife make lunch - Shampoo Opera - give it a spin Spare some of your free time? <GreyMaria> I walked around the Lake so many goddamn times that my sex drive was brutally murdered Kawa rocks — byuu |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 21/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
The only thing it has in common with web browsers is that it is capable of displaying images. :x
I know, I've already violated one of the most important rules to new open source software start-ups (proof). One of the problems I face is requiring users to download a 7MB runtime just so they can do something silly like open a ROM so they can see the level renderings which are already uploaded to my website. (See OP.) For Ubuntu users, it's a piece of cake: XULRunner 1.9.0 is installed by default. Users only need to download the gz/bz2 from hgkw, and run a simple command:
For Windows and Mac OS X users, it's not so trivial. Either the user must download XULRunner, or Firefox (which has its own "private" XULRunner included). The other options for Windows users include: 1) creating a XULRunner package (XPI) that can 'installed' to the XULRunner environment by double clicking the icon, 2) creating a full executable [classic] installer, complete with a XULRunner build, if necessary; this is how XR apps like SongBird currently do it. Truth is, I'm still not entirely familiar with the platform, so it's hard to say what's the best way to make an installer. |
| Parasyte |
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Red Goomba Level: 18 Posts: 22/48 EXP: 24784 Next: 5113 Since: 02-09-09 From: Flagstaff, AZ Last post: 5209 days Last view: 5187 days |
Nothing to report, exactly. I haven't forgotten about this project. Just not seen any new community interest in it... |
| RT-55J |
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Armor Guardian Level: 81 Posts: 1291/1562 EXP: 4888747 Next: 104102 Since: 02-23-07 From: Wild Side Arcade Last post: 312 days Last view: 54 days |
I'd attribute the lack of interest to the fact that this game isn't very popular amongst Mega Man fans (for various reasons) and hackers tend to be interested in games they're fans of.
In other words, this topic would be 10 pages by now if the 7 in the title was replaced by an X. Still, I'm somewhat interested in the prospect of an editor. Replaying the game recently, it was much better than I remembered (though the final boss is as bad as ever). Oh, and just out of curiosity, have you tried using BSNES's debugger? I've heard that its significantly better than Gieger's SNES9x debugger. |
| Kiokuffiib11 |
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 Porcupo Level: 40 Posts: 78/313 EXP: 407013 Next: 34296 Since: 07-10-09 From: Marquette, Michigan Last post: 3311 days Last view: 1933 days |
I couldn't get it to do much, and ran into all kinds of problems. I finally gave up on it. But, I would love to have an editor for Mega Man VII. ____________________ セシル |
| Main - ROM Hacking - Mega Man 7 editor and general hacking | New thread | New reply |
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