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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - - Posts by Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba                 Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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It's not "I found this a long time ago" , rather "It's already been found out and implemented into several tools, so stop wasting time" 
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I thought linking to other forums was bad, so I didn't
http://romhackersworld.de.vu/ "Pokémon-Hacking" / "Downloads" / "Gold Silber Tools" / "AgiXP". No source available, but a nice German documentation here. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba  Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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It's middle endian too. There are 2 middle endians out there, which is really just because Big-Endian and Little-Endian get byteswapped to get Middle Endian
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| How Big was your new image? Did it contain both gfx, and not just one of them? Anyways, you can edit these with TLP or YY-Chr or even your hexeditor if you want to.
It's just in case ur wondering: You need to insert both pics, because it is an animation made of two separate pictures
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I heard there's a special Table used for calculations of internal number --> PokéDex number. You can just reverse it by looking for the PokéDex number and then reading out it's internal index. That way you can calculate a lotta things like rombanks for pictures and so on.
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| There you go
It's the numbering table's offset. No other equations tho =/ Babelfishrun should help with getting it. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba  Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Hi,
I hereby request approval for posting in the rom hacking sections of this Acmlm's Board. Thank you very much for your attention. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| This is so yesterday dude... I did the same thing back in 199x "Erst0r"
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba  Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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How would something show up anyway, as my nickname is a common word in German? And yeah, I always did everything better and faster than HyperHacker did! Like, remember that awful bank switching jump code he released? Like, lol
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba  Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Be my guest, HH
Oh, see, now I even let u see my nice VWF in there, too !
I don't have a need for my custom map editor. But the one I use is made by a friend of mine. I'll share a pic of it too
The black rooftops are because I hacked that in there too... The editor, however, is 100% gold-compliant and doesn't use any goldmap-ish inis or anything and is compatible to both, English & German rom. I think it can handle japanese, too, I'm not sure tho
As for a script debugger... You mean ASM? I use No$GMB and BGB, both have their pro's and con's, obviously. As for internal scripts. I simply don't use a debugger at all... When researching, I use my doc or the script routine (of the game). That helps me... dunno bout you, lad :O My doc of the game's internal routines... I don't share that. However, you can have a picture of it too It's neither complete of course, nor should it be.
Finally, my scripting doc, that is indeed not based on guesswork, but, however on asm researching EACH AND EVERY scripting code and documenting what it does. By public demand, I soon translated into English. I'll attack it here, so you can see for yourself. Feel free to use it, nevertheless
cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Hey, so I looked into your patch, just to see how it did things. First of all, you put a lot of effort into that... The same thing can be achieved another way. However, nice work, dude
Secondly, I looked into your patch and found what was causing the bug for you! It's at 4:7E10. You revert the palettes to the ones from the backup-screen instead of the one used. You can change that in two or more ways: - change it to read hl from 0x9800, it's probably always the accurate screen. - change it to read hl from 0xFFD8/D9, that's the register that tells the game where to draw the tiles to - or, preferrably the most accurate, change it to read from 0xC3A0, as that is always the right screen On a side note, Zidane is absolutely right
Originally posted by Zidane It's not like I don't like HyperHacker or stuff, just a little competition here Sorry if it was to much for anybody :-/ On another hand though, I am really surprised HyperHacker didn't know about my scripting compendium, as it has been up for d/l for quite some time now.
Originally posted by Yoronosuku If it comforts you: There are only a few elitist German pigs like me left. Pretty much all the others behave like you said too. German community is having problems to find skillful newbies, however, that wouldn't concern you. Thanks to Kawa for reopening for me to post here. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Indeed I do care. As to my precious work, you don't seem to get what I'm talking about, for one. Maybe to translate it as "scripting code" didn't clear things enough, whatever. The things you mentioned there, are in fact, in there.
I'm talking about the codes that get executed, for instance, when you talk to a person, when you get a Pokémon etc. You talk about codes used in text. Regardless, it's all in there:
These, I translated as in-text-codes, because they can be executed, once the text interpreter is started via any of the large range of commands, like, for instance the widely used 4C scripting code. It comes in nicer formatting in the .doc resp. .html too 
You might just understand something wrong about the scripting doc, however, it should be clear that I didn't pull that 41-page-document out of my ass. The "translated Goldmap" is up for d/l and has been up for d/l a long time. However, when I made that posting, the site got hacked and went down. But now it's up and running again, here you go sir : http://magicstone.de/rhw/ Since it's all in bad German, I'll tell you to go to "Pokémon-Hacking" / "Downloads" / "Pokémon Gold/Silber-Tools" and then finally, click on "Zeromap". On another hand, you could also have noted, that it doesn't look anything like Goldmap at all... Especially since I showed off the connection-feature (the orange blocks the mouse is hoovering over) which Goldmap never had and never will have as fas as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned, the matter should be resolved. You were thinking about the wrong kind of scripting code, or my reference to these codes is just unclear. Whatever it is, I'm open to suggestions, especially when the actual translation is concerned. Well, how I did the 2 tileset-thing. First off, I can't draw for the sake of my life. If my life depended on my drawing skills, I would die instantly The tileset was made for said custom German hack by a friend of mine who happens to help hacking it. Secondly, I hacked the routines, that limited the number of blocks usable from 0x7F to 0xFF like you did, hacked the palette-routine at 2:4000 to numbers higher than 7. I hacked the routine at 0:2xxx thatl oads the tileset to vram (that's why you actually see some tiles before the second part of the tileset. The internal buffer is not big enough to handle decompressing tilesets and putting them into vram during periods of time with screen on (it's used for pkmn pics, so it can only be guaranteed to work for 31 tiles, tilesets are bigger though). Then, I did some hacking on how the palettes are chosen, so sprites won't go into "hidden state" when these tiles are there. Then I did some other funky stuff to support additional palettes that could change and different animation routines. I hacked it so it would read the two unused bytes from the tileset header to have custom palettes/animations/ whatever Oh yeah, I expanded the first of the two map headers to 12 bytes instead of 9, too, but that's besides the point since these bytes just do extra stuff for roof tops and crap.
I almost don't remember how I did this, since it's long ago. However, I know that I looked at some stuff in crystal that was usable, since it had already support for double-sized tilesets. However, not much turned up to be useful besides the tile--> pal arrangement code afair.
Just keep calm. That's why it screws up. It is not supposed to redraw the palettes of the older screen. Upon exit of the pokégear, the older screen is the pokegear, hence it screws up. Instead, you would want to draw the color for the current screen, whose attributes happen to always be where I said. The last thing was unclear though, error on my part. I was thinking about signing the tiledata in the backup screen at 0xC3A0 to decide what vram tile to use. It's probably the best method, although I don't employ it myself. My code, however doesn't put some kind of warning screen into the rom, it just doesn't work on a regular gb... Something that could be fixed if I had the gfx and time to do it, which I don't and which was planned to be added upon finalization of the hack (which is far far from now, if ever). Actually, I just remembered while typing this, we had a beta release, so I can actually share everything with you. I'm gonna look it up. K, found it. Goto that funky German site I know you already bookmarked again, "Pokémon-Hacking" / "Downloads" / "Pokémon Hacks" / "Midnight Hack" The zip either contains a .ips or a .exe for a German Rom from the good set (abundant everywhere in the web). Patch it, be merry. It's actually pretty cool, though it's short. Yeah so, I hope I proved my point, really... If I forgot anything, please feel free to ask.Oh yeah, it does say "tuna sandwich", it's a way to encrypt the actual addresses, so nobody steals my work. Still, however, I don't share too much info on things. Especially, because it's not complete and not documented well enough for everybody to understand. Plus, it's in German... like you cared. Oh, and yes, I did check with the English version for my scripting tutorial and they are all the same. Some differences in the doc and actual game might result in translation differences between the German and English version of the game, since I didn't bother to check upon every text that I quoted. However, I tried my utmost to be accurate when it was needed (like the 0Cxxxx-codes, that sometimes quote strings). Oh yeah, you're like never online in AIM, or else I would've talked to you that way (and I tried)... However, for some reason or another I thought the pm-system was out of order due to bandwidth constraints for acmlm... Seems you proved me wrong there
cYa, Tauwasser (edited by Tauwasser on 10-26-06 04:39 PM) |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Well you see... Mine does not, once babelfished. As it so happenned, my older scripting doc was released "German-only", which means, I didn't make an English version as nobody asked...not that I strictily enforced not to translate it.
Soon, some documents kept popping up, that were authored by a certain Condensation Water (babelfished Tauwasser, wrong nevertheless...). Of course, it was also ©®ŘĹ ans whatnot by some idiot babelfishing user trying to impress people... Of course, the work was scrutinized and all wrong as certain words could not be translated by that poor babelfish thing. So I emailed about three of these sites, kindly asking to take the documents down and instead use my new one. And that's it. One of these three even emailed me back. However, "as it came to pass", the site had to undergo certain maintenance and was moving and whatever and as soon as it was back up and running again, "my" doc was still there. Another mail and nothing happenned and I soon came to realize that And that's why I don't release my notes. It's not even completed in German, and much stuff is just randomly written down, because I had to deal only with code 0x10 and 0x33 of a routine that has about 0xFF possible codes. I translated the Scripting Compendium in order to avoid people using babelfish and then trying to figure out why there would be "People-Events geh'ing in that Weg" or so. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| So, you want to work with me than against me, right? Then stop denying that I'm right Maybe you should get to know your rom better, also.
So, actually, Originally posted by HyperHackerOriginally posted by TauwasserThe GBC doesn't have palettes higher than #7. Unless you mean being able to choose from more than morning/day/night/black, which has nothing at all to do with anyhthing we've discussed. Actually, I never said anything about a palette #8 to #F, I just said it would accept higher numbers. Because, as you might know, attributes from 08 to 0F for a Tile set it to VRAM1. That's what I'm talking about. Originally posted by Hyperhacker You are wrong. And I'm gonna show you. Just because I like you. So, first off, I have the English version rom of Pokmn Gold here. But I'm gonna D/L one instead and tell you it's CRC-32 and MD5, just for you to be sure. MD5: A6924CE1F9AD2228E1C6580779B23878 CRC-32: 6BDE3C3E So, my rom is 0671 - Pokemon Gold.gbc dumped by Oldskool. So, where to begin.... Well, right. You hopefully know about mapheaders and the like. Off we are to 0x940ED. That's the map bank pointer table for your information. Every pointer stands for a map-bank and points to the first mapheader in the map bank. The list is FF-terminated. There are bytes 2141 there, so let's go to our first mapheader for map 1.1 at 94121. 2506036D5B1B090101 So. It's out first mapheader. It's a PokéCenter. Tileset 06. Permissionbyte 03. 2nd mapheader @ 25:5B6D. Location on world map is 0x1B. Music is 09. Time of day is 01, morning. Fishing byte is 01, a random set, because you obviously can't fish in a PokéCenter. So, let's examine the 2nd mapheader @ 95B6D: 0004052BE842510040C54000 Border block is 00, a black block. Dimensions are 04x05, height times width. Blockdata/mapdata is at 2B:42E8. Scriptheader (see my doc for information) is at 51:4000. Events are at 51:40C5. Connections are none, hence 00. Let's go to the event data. at 1440C5:
These are all generic People events, they all have only 3 byte codes in place. However, we're gonna play. Let's go to the first people event's script codes @ 51:4002 (see my doc), since all other scripts for other people follow that one. @ 144002 0C0000 Script for people event #0 0C2D00 Script for people event #1 510E40 Script for people event #2 516740 Script for people event #3 You can check with my doc now. So, the first one starts a pokécenter-dialog. That's the woman behind the counter. It's terminated after it finishes without a special code. The second one is a happiness counseling dialog. It'll tell you something like "PKMN#1 is very happy" or so. The other two actually refer to text within this rombank. Two textcodes, one for text @ 51:400E and one @ 51:4067. This is, where your known codes happen. Both texts start off with 00Textextextextex and end with 57 (which will terminate the whole text process and not let any other codes take place. feel free to put a 50 for the first occurence of 57 and watch people event #2 say his text and event #3's text as well (of course, it'll screw up )
So. I said I'm gonna have phun. So basically, I'll tell you what to do. Either you do it, or you don't. Set the scriptpointers for events #1 to #3 to 0x2812. That will make them not lose it, once we're done with the scripts and you enter that map. So, that's event #0 left for us to play with. Let's make it a give-pokémon script instead of that oldfashioned pokécenter talk
So off we go. I'll make it so you can only get the pokémon once or else, it will be the PokéCenter lady talk. 311A00 - check whether pokémon was already given. 080B40 - If it wasn't already given, goto code for giving 0C0000 - PokéCenter dialog 331A00 - Set bit no so it won't be given twice. 47 - load font and start textbox, the code afterwards is gonna output something 2DFB050000 - Give a Pkmn Celbi at lvl 05 without item and with your own trainer ID 49 - rewrite sprite moving tiles to ram, we don't want ABCD's walking about. 90 - end script Notice, how I used the bit no that s given by Elm once you got a pokémon, so it won't work unless you cheat your way there without a pokémon or have a handy cheat menu incorporated or manually edit the ram the bit is held. Now for the test
And there it is. I don't know WHY you never ever noticed the broader set of scripting codes, but it's all good, they're there. Without em, it just wouldn't work
So, hopefully now, you stop your talking about how two different versions and crap don'T make it alike blablah. Originally posted by HyperHacker As I stated, I really just did remember that we had a beta out, when I wrote this post. I actually found it while looking for a d/l link for zeromap. And I was obviously wrong, it isn't compatible with the english version... I somehow must have forgot that... Anyways, since somebody else approached me about it via PM here, I'll probably come up with something that will work for english roms too. However, I need to talk to the author and he's busy.(You don't spread hacked versions of your friend's mapeditor... imho) Originally posted by HyperHacker Nah, I worried too much back in the day, because writing it directly to ram is somewhat awkward, when you can use dma. However, I couldn't come up with something better than that without breaking the whole game :-/ or at least the period between mapreloads looking crappy. So yeah, I decided to leave as is and implemented what you said earlier. Originally posted by Hyperhacker Actually, it does. For some reason, you don't write the right palettes there to begin with but directly to screen. It's, however, not my code and I only had a glance and can tell you only this, so be the cool hacker you claim to be and fix it yourself, I just wanted to help you out. Originally posted by HyperHacker It would even be greater to just use the 7th bit # >= 0x80 --> VRAM1 instead of 0
Originally posted by HyperHacker I didn't have to rewrite all the routines like you did. Basically, I changed only the loading routine and the palette setting routine for the tiles, and the block limit (optional), and that's it. You're gonna have major problems once in a while with other screens too, I bet you. Actually, as far as I remember, there is a check somewhere for attribute #7 to hide sprites and they wouldn't get hidden under just attribute #F, that's why I did that extra and 7 somewhere in that routine. It wasn't a persisten problem in every screen though, just sometimes it would occurr. I don't know. I already told you, it's long long ago, so I don't remember properly what I did especially why. Of course, you can always check out my code and see that 1st, it's not yours, 2nd, how it does stuff. Oh yeah, mine is better because it's actually used, too. Midnight Hack isn't just some "add-a-map"-hack. It's a completely new hack. You might even enjoy the new intro I did Just D/L it and have fun and patch it to a German rom. If you didn't see the link, it's up above and later in the text it just tells you where to get it from on that site. Here you go. "Pokémon-Hacking" / "Downloads" / "Pokémon Hacks" / "Midnight Hack". Check it out, see for yourself and stop bitching (we're in the bitching forums, remember ?)
Also, as you might see on that page, I'm a member of that hacking group and I did it and you can take my word for it. Please don't start that silly argument. I mean, I could also just claim you found these asm hacks and the patch on the streets of wherever you live and just put em online under your name. However, I didn't doubt you, did I? I expect the same thing from you, too. Remember how somebody is not guilty until guilt is proven and not vice versa ?
Originally posted by HyperHacker I never said I couldn't get you a specific information (as long as I have it compiled in there). However, I said I wouldn't give them out with candy for Halloween. It's simply that too many people are gonna translate it with babelfish and then tell me I wrote crap. It's funny how many people think babelfish is the authority in translating documents and postings. Originally posted by HyperHacker You sure would think so, wouldn't you? However, quite the opposite happens for some ununderstandable reason. I actually stopped caring a long time ago about these as they didn't answer my emails. It's funny as is, but people seem to appreciate crappy translations by author unknown publicized by noob_idiot1337yeahbaby than the real thing. Ever since I posted that document which was translated to my fullest ability and command of the English language, you started stating how it was wrong, made up, and basically crap for some other fucking version of the same game. It's like you didn't have any idea at all just to how hard it is to write 42 pages trying to be consistent in style and explanation. Then translating all of that crap into English, looking up every offset mentioned and every direct quote in there, then maintaining it in both languages? I even ripped all of the music out of there (with help of some friends) as mp3 of the first 9 or 10 seconds). The latter because I have zero knowledge of music, though I completely deciphered the music routine in technical terms (which doesn't help people knowing how to create music, as he and I use different terms and crap and the engine behaves oddly, too, because me and him, we couldn't map what the engine does to the changes in music...) However, he composed some one-channel songs of Evanescence
Anyways, I hate how you people don't wanna learn and try if "that dude" is right or not. No, you just dismiss it by saying "I never encountered these. They must be wrong, you must be stupid putting 08 in a script and not crashing. It may be two versions, but really, what you did was lying to us SOB". I mean, c'mon, it was all directly in front of you and you didn't bother of fearing to be publicly proved wrong. That's how it seems to me and that's really unfair, too. Now, don't get me even started. cYa, Tauwasser (edited by Tauwasser on 10-29-06 05:26 AM) |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I won't even go into detail here. However, I'll tell you, you never will encounter an event that points to your "second set of scripting codes" (they're not scripts btw, but you wouldn't give a fuck). It's simply not possible to have an event point directly to text at all. And it wouldn't make sense either, cause all of your "scripting codes" cannot do nearly as much as the real set is capable of.
I think, I actually explained well enough in the header in the tutorial itself.
That's what my codes are. The are used in every single interaction with a people event (ok, except for trainers, balls, and some other crap which is explained in the tutorial section referred to in the text). You cannot do what you're saying. It's simply impossible. Maybe you just encounters scripts, that first thing they do, call to another script... That'd explain the 00's at the beginning. As for the rest, I think I don't need to explain for yet the fifth time, that the routines described were all hacked long ago. I simply don't remember and never put up with writing them down. It can actually be done in some hours when you really know what you wanna accomplish. Ok, forget about the signing part. That was indeed crap, now that I actually looked at it. Somehow I thought there were less characters for text and it would fit in 0x7F tiles. Whatever, I didn't hack the games for quite some time now actually :-/ So, you're used to writing long documents? How come? Your longest (the OOT one) has 33,177 characters and 7,083 word. My compendium has 62,167 characters and 13,139 words (English language version). No doubt yours is long. However, writing two documents (about the size of my documentation of asm calls actually) and one longer one doesn't make you "used to it". Granted, I don't want to badmouth your work. It's some real nice work, actually.
And that's exactly the point. I wanted to make it fancy, as I already said. You do know, that with map connections the tileset doesn't reload (that's why route houses are used all over the place). I wanted it to decompress the tileset to ram first, then dma it in there. That way, it might not have been noticably slower than the regulat ones, plus places with different tilesets could be connected. However, that was much too much effort back then (when I didn't have as much experience). So that's what I'm saying and that's why I dropped it. Mainly, yes, it would be ram exhaustive. Nonetheless, the effect would be good
Your code. Doesn't. Write. The right palettes/attributes. There. (<-- being C3A0 + CCD9, the locations talked about earlier). That is, why there is a routine that corrects the palettes. However, this particular routine writes the wrong attributes (the ones from last screen) to there. I don't see why it would make sense to write last screen's attributes there when you're always at the current screen. You took for granted that the same screen would always be at 9C00 instead of some other screen. That's all I'm saying. I won't even bother from now on to argue about that.
Nope, it only accesses the lower 4 bits of the attribute byte. That's numbers from 00 to 0F. I explained it earlier (when you were trying to change my words around). The routine at 2:4000 is responsible for this. It reads 4 bits, but only ever sets three (original design). I changed it so it reads 4 bits and sets 4 bits, too. 3 of these being palette attributes and the 4th being the vram attribute.
Just to reiterate here a bit, it took this long and still you don't see how only your information is inconsistent with everything else so far. That's what bothers me.
It's actually part of the compendium and is referenced with every music code there. However, you wouldn't have noticed: rolleyes:
I have well-explained that it applies to the German, English and Japanese version even (of course, I didn't release a tutorial in Japanese...). As a matter of fact, I want to see "your version" of the rom working just with scriptpointers pointing to in-text-codes without major readjustment and losing every last bit of advantage the script engine has. Thank you. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| @Silvershield
There's a general flaw in all of your arguments. It's words like right and wrong that caught my attention. You try to justify things ultimately... Like "mugging is wrong". For some reason or another, I don't see the point in arguing then... I can say "mugging is right". Now we have a problem. Almost every decision is case based. You can't condemn everybody who mugs others just because "mugging is wrong". The mugger might need something, be poor, whatever. Have three children at home waiting to get a Same thing goes for abortion. On one hand "abortion should always be legal if it's performed on a rape victim". On the other hand, killing "fetus'" is just wrong, too. As I see it, there are certain spheres where people do have a say and when people don't. I believe parents ultimately should have the last say. Yes, parents, or rather soon-to-be parents. Not the mother, not the father alone. If there are health risks or other risks involved, then why not abort now and receive later at a convenient point in time? Who has the right to tell other people what's best for them and especially something that cannot live on it's own? I know of people who are pro-war and contra-abortion. These people don't give a damn farting shit about people getting ripped apart by bombs, which is a direct issue in my opinion. However, when some Ohioan woman wants to get rid of something they don't want, they couldn't care a single bit less! (e.g. See here) The link above is not even about abortion, but about Plan B and how it is denied to a person wanting it. In my opinion that is a felony just like stabbing a person is a physical inviolability. You don't go around impeding other people's rights. That's what they were made for! So people don't go boss other people around to their likings. I mean, c'mon. I think your appendage is a living thing too. Do I force you then to keep it and let you die from it? Another example of this can be found in Michael Moore's books. For some reason he is calling up an official and fakes that he thinks male sperm, being a credential to make life, is something sacred, too, and all people who kill sperm, e.g. by using a condom or "clubbing it" in the rest rooms should face charges. It was surprising he was not the first one to even raise that thought, but there was a somewhat active community of men actually trying to get other people to sign their "referendum", too. I mean, it's all just the same, really... Some people might not want to abort a baby. And for the sake of luminosity they don't need to take advantage of the medical procedures in place already, however taking that right, the right to use said medical procedures to abort a foetus, is a dire violation of they personal rights and even their body, too. It shouldn't be as much about whether or not men should have a say in it as rather if other people can impede somebody else's right to do what they want with their body. Some special cases, like mental disorder and whatever may be considered. However, murder is forbidden in modern society, or so they say. I remember that one lady, being a cripple or having a disorder or something, who actually appealed to the European Court because she wanted to die. However, she didn't want her husband to end up in jail for helping her. That's why she wanted to push a law that'd state consentous killing was alright. I don't know what happened to her actually, however, it also doesn't seem wrong to ask somebody to end one's life when you yourself cannot end it. In case everybody wonders, why I just drop this mental shitload on you... I tried to exemplify, that there are always alternatives to be considered, when "lumped together" solutions won't work. I for my part, don't see why people should have any say in my personal affairs as far as nobody else is concerned at all. Therefore, only people involved should be allowed to have a say. There seems to be a complication for abortion because it only happens in the body of the female. However, most people are aware how the other part feels about it, before they actually have sex! I for one, told my gf that I didn't want to have a child and that therefore all possible matters must be taken to never let it happen. However, I expect her to talk to me as soon as it happens and that we'll find a solution that will satisfy us both. I'd hate to be surprised like "Oh, by the way, I'm pregnant, you're gonna pay for it the rest of its life until it's eighteen, I'm not gonna change my mind." That'd just suck and not be fair. However, I think I would have a say in that matter because I inadvertently would have helped to produce it. So long, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| It's not like the foetus has any feelings or thoughts at all :| It just has no desires at all. Even newborns don't show that much desire to live right away. They need to get fed, get whatever they need in daily life and funnily enough somewhen the process of thinking just starts. It's not like a foetus has experience with anything.
I personally don't think foetuses are human yet. They are officially called human once they're out of the womb and would not die on their own in some hours. And in any case. The desire to live of an already "raised" human seems to be of higher importance than the one of a mere foetus who is not yet ready to think, actively feel etc. Anyhows, you don't like swaying from topic to topic like me, so I'll stop there. Oh yeah, and the figures for Iraq range from 46,000 up to an estimated 942,636 that already died or will die following this war :-/ Only using American Army figures doesn't count So yeah, that would totally be out of interest there.
Anyways, people involved should have a say. And as the whole earth is in fact involved imo there's nothing wrong being pro-war or anti-war here. Germany for instance pays too for things the stoopid Americans destroyed, so don't bother arguing that point. cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I already know about how it works. I've seen photographies of it. Heck, my friend's mom is used to doing it even. I still think it doesn't need to be humane at all. Somehow people are always thinking about being humane. You should treat dogs, cats, fish, whatever squirrely animal in a humane way. However, they are in fact not human.
On the other hand, I didn't say it was humane, so maybe that criticism wasn't directed at me, who knows... There's really nothing human about freaking foetuses during the time frame when abortion is legal. For instance, there is a picture floating around that shows different premature (?) foetuses from different animals as well as the human. You cannot visually distinguish between them. A dog foetus looks exactly the same as a human foetus. That's about it :| And that's what I got taught in school (the book happened to have that picture in it). EDIT: Found something like it. http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/embryo-compare.jpg I'm sorry that there are no further explanations as to what the numbers mean in weeks :-/ cYa, Tauwasser (edited by Tauwasser on 11-09-06 03:21 PM) (edited by Tauwasser on 11-09-06 03:24 PM) |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershiled I do, see my response to Vyper. Originally posted by Silvershield "Looking different" and "being indistinguishable" from e.g. a dog are totally different things. I so far have never seen a baby that was not that, a baby. If a human baby would look like a dog, nobody would say it was a human child in the first place and be treated that way. On another hand, you always see "children" in them. They are not. They may be offspring, but they are not children in the literal sense. Almost all embryos (as far as vertebraes are concerned) look alike. There is no point in arguing that. So why do you insist that they are special? Because a human is at some point going to emerge from them? In my opinion these lives don't qualify as human at all. It's when they reach a certain age that they can be recognized as humans. Usually due dates for last possible abortion are well before that as far as I remember. However, labor pains can also be induced earlier. Then the little thing will be living, breathing, crying that is, for a few hours and finally die. There will be virtually no record kept of it ever being alive. That's how it goes. I despise abortion for convenience's sake for myself, however, there are also legitimate reasons for abortion. Rape being one of them. Teen pregnancy another. Or when it just won't fit in. You can't be pregnant for nine month and hope that after that nothing will have changed and you can still go on with career/school/life in general. That's not how it works. Usually you loose connections, get out of touch etc. Fucking around and being at the doctors for abortion every week doesn't justify abortion at all, I agree. On a side note, premarital sex is not believed wrong in many cultures and countries, so maybe don't be too conservative with that :-/ cYa, Tauwasser |
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Tauwasser Red Goomba Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6392 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Rom Manic They...don...'t :-| They simply don't have a say. Originally posted by Silvershield What I'm actually trying to say is, that either all beings should be treated equally or none. It's that simple when it comes down to. I mean. You already go there Originally posted by Silvershield Other animals are alive. I share that too, so why should I only extend my empathetic regard to humans? Personally, I don't care about humans nor animals alike. It's just that. I care about people I like. My family, my friends, such people. I could care less about other people, really. Same goes for animals. This empathetic feeling obviously doesn't occur to you at all when it's about taking animals' lives. Animals don't care about taking lives either, don't worry. And that's exactly my point. That little bugger is in none of my regards a human. It's a creature soon to be human if you will. Nevertheless, it's not like I care about it much. It's all about the definition of being human. For you a fertilized egg is human, too. You could go on indefinitely with that argumentation. Every cell of your body is human too. It shares parts of the exact same DNA as all the other human beings. So the dna of a cell defines if it's human or not. By that logic you're killing "potential human beings" every second by losing some of your skin :| Originally posted by Silvershield And that's where people will disagree. A human is a human. A fetus isn't necessarily. It becomes clear it is a human when it looks and acts like a human. However, in early stages of development, it's just something living with the potential to be a human or to be screwed up totally, too :-/ And the "different" argument isn't working out, I think. You state that there are diseases that will make a human not look like a human. However, I doubt that. All the diseases you named have a great impact on how that human looks, however, it clearly stays a human being :-| Unlike you said, it is still distinguishable from a ... fox e.g. cYa, Tauwasser |
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