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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Hm? | New poll | | |
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Gavin Cheep-cheep Vandalism is not tolerated Since: 11-17-05 From: IL, USA Last post: 6507 days Last view: 6451 days |
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I don't know.. nothing too provacative here, just asking a few questions that are obviously related to the Illegal Immigration debate. None of these are too well thought out, just some questions I have I guess... *shrugs*
When did the "illegal" in "illegal alien" start meaning something else? When did "immigrant" become synonymous with "illegal alien"? Why do people actually believe that Americans won't do menial labor? How have the guest worker-ish programs worked for European countries, and is it fair to apply those results to the relationship with the U.S. and Mexico? Will I be able to illegally enter Mexico and demand the same rights (or even for that matter, any rights beyond the right to a jail cell) as legal Mexican citizens? |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by Gavin Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd say that (at least for the politicians) it's all political bullshit that they do to try to get more votes. And I don't know better. As for the other people, I don't know. I've always thought that if you enter the country illegally, you shouldn't have the rights of legal people, but meh. That's just the basic logic area of my brain talking, it has no idea what it's talking about, nope, none at all.
I dunno. Arrogance?
I can only reply to the second part with a somewhat unsure "no"; too many differences between the countries for me to believe right now that saying "hey, this works in Sweden (for example), why the hell aren't we doing it here" makes any sense.
Depends. Can you speak Spanish? Seriously, though, that's the exact argument I usually use here. We can't do that in any other country, we can't sneak in on a boat illegally and still expect employment. =/ But the problem with this debate is that people automatically assume that because of what my opinion is (as seen above, I'm in favor of not doing any favors for illegal aliens), that I'm anti-immigration. It's this kind of black-and-white perception that tends to ruin any intelligent discussion on the subject from what I've seen. I'm actually quite willing to accept that maybe it needs to be easier to legally come here, but that doesn't mean we have to help out those who try to work around inconvenient laws. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6432 days Last view: 6431 days |
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I think it goes with the whole give 'em an inch they take a mile thing.
We let they work here, so now they want to have all the rights of a citizen even though they aren't a citizen. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6448 days Last view: 6448 days |
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I hate to pull the conservative card, but this is why liberals like Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy are fucking retarded.
Why, oh why do people LISTEN to them? I believe if you come to this country, you learn english. It's the national language. Don't like it? Get the fuck out. Also, if you're not legal (regardless if you work or not), quit sucking up our social security, medicare, and education dollars that come from the legal taxpayers. No, I don't have a job currently, but I'm at least looking Mind you, I have no problem with legal immigrants, and I totally support them coming over |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6704 days Last view: 6704 days |
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I have to think that it's been turned into a polar thing just because it's another thing to argue about. If you'll recall, Bush advocated a guest-worker program of sorts within the past couple of years...not sure what happened with that...and he actually speaks quite good Spanish, arguably better than his English, actually | |||
Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Need I point to reasons I think Bush is "fucking retarded"? No? A'ight then. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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Really, I think it should be made as easy as possible for Mexican immigrants to get jobs and pay taxes.
Instead of gathering around the Home Depot and doing under the table work, they should have the option of just getting real jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us. The whole "they'll take our jobs" logic is silly. Why are we more entitled to work somewhere just because its on the same side of the border as we were born? When Mexicans come over and start making money, they'll be consumers like the rest of us, buying products right here in the US, which creates more jobs. No, maybe they shouldn't have all the rights of citizens, but if they're paying taxes, they should have the right to send their children to the same schools. And once they've been here long enough, maybe a few years, they should have the option of citizenship. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6432 days Last view: 6431 days |
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No one mind Mexican immigrants getting jobs emcee, they mind illegal immigrants getting jobs.
Why should someone who broke the law get rewarded for breaking the law? |
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Gavin Cheep-cheep Vandalism is not tolerated Since: 11-17-05 From: IL, USA Last post: 6507 days Last view: 6451 days |
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Originally posted by emcee |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6448 days Last view: 6448 days |
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Originally posted by Cheveyo ChowilawuDid I ever say Bush wasn't retarded? No, I didn't (and yes, I agree that he is a fuckwad).Originally posted by Vyper |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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Just a minor request...Do you guys think we could exercise more discretion with our wordplay and perhaps be slightly more eloquent than "fuckwad", "retard", etc.? | |||
emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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Originally posted by Gavin Yes, their illegal now, but it should be a easy as possible for them to become legal. Like going down to a government office and filling out a couple of forms. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6432 days Last view: 6431 days |
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You mean, like they should've before they came? | |||
Apophis Ropa Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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they couldn't have done that before they came. that's not how the process works. there are tests and fees. | |||
emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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Originally posted by Apophis Exactly, I mean, if they could just go fill out form before they come and be legal, I'm sure they'd all do it. Besides just the tests and fees, you have to be some sort of "professional" with a degree, or in a management position. |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6451 days Last view: 6437 days |
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Why is it any different if they're "illegal" or a "non-illegal" immigrant. I think you guys are confusing the issues.. no one cares about a piece of paper that says your legal. Besides the people who are concerned with collecting taxes from these people.
The issue here is employment. Immigrants will work longer hours, more productively for cheaper wages. A threat to American workers.. they'll cheapen labor and whatnot. That's the main issue. Personally... I think that there's enough money to go around. Honestly... has minimum wage lowered since we've had droves of illegal immigrants comming into our country? No. In fact, we've always had droves and droves of illegal immigrants comming into our country. This isn't a real issue... it's a flaw (or a blessing depending on who you are), that always exists.. and it's being used as a platform for the mid-term elections. It's like saying.. "Well you know... the skies still blue, how are we allowing it to still be blue?"... it's a non-issue. Something people will make a big deal about.. then after the mid-term elections... forget about completely. Like how after the presidential election people forgot about the veterans again... and how the issues of social security and other election issues still haven't been dealt with at all (abortion). If you really want to stop the massive amount of Mexican immigrants comming into our country... then why don't we help improve mexico? Central America is a mess right now... and it's probably in our best interest to help them out anyways. Considering that they're like... on our border. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6448 days Last view: 6448 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI really, really, really don't want to post this, but I have to. Ziff, did you see the new South Park 2-part episode called Cartoon Wars? If not, please do so immediately (and heed the messages, please). Anyway, yeah, that's cool. I'll refrain from derrogatory (did I spell that right?) word usage. |
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mattp Red Paratroopa Since: 03-04-06 Last post: 6695 days Last view: 6695 days |
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Actually, they send most of it back to their family in Mexico because the US dollar goes a lot farther down there than it does up here. Also a reason why a lot of intelligent people retire to South America. In the US you have to have a LOT of money to retire comfortably, in South America, that same money will let you live like a king.
non-illegal... heh. Actually thats the crux of the issue, and its what -everyone- cares about. A legal immigrants pays taxes and supports the 'system', whereas an illegal immigrant pays no taxes ( except for sales tax of course ) and drains the system. Which costs you money.
That's a secondary issue that I haven't seen recently been brought up. While it is true that the illegal immigrants will cheapen the labor supply, MOST americans won't notice the difference at all because very few americans do manual labor. Any effect will actually be positive, as prices go down when wages are lowered. If anything it'll encourage people to get training so they can have a little more job security. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6430 days |
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Originally posted by VyperOriginally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI really, really, really don't want to post this, but I have to. Ziff, did you see the new South Park 2-part episode called Cartoon Wars? If not, please do so immediately (and heed the messages, please). Yeah, I did. However, swearing has squat to do with freedom of speech or the fact that Family Guy has jokes not prevalent to the storyline or that South Park is preachy! This is a debate forum, and if you've been to debates...well, swearing is discouraged. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6432 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by Apophis Hint: If you go to the immigration office and ask for papers to become a citizen, they will know you entered the country illegally and thus you have broken the law. If you don't come in legally, the government can't know you're illegal or you should get deported. It's more of a thing about upholding the law. Do you want to let the laws to not be upheld so people can come over, work, send the money back, then stop working in their own country? Also, if they just come over here to work, nothing is getting done where ever they came from. |
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