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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Church Endorsed Politics |
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Supersuit Goomba                  Since: 01-17-06 From: crap-for-weather Michigan Last post: 6793 days Last view: 6793 days |
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The way it should be is that a church will tell its members to pray about the issue of who would be the best person for the political spot, not have full belief in one sinner like them. No priest, nor pastor will answer you as God will. In Christian faith, the way it's supposed to work is you have as great of a personal bond with God as you can, so through prayer you will know the truth. If your prayer is heard and answered, you can make your choice without discussion and never feel disagreement with yourself. People are not really looking for church and state to be separated, they are looking for pride and state to be separated, which will never happen here. Adding or subtracting religion from politics will have no effect as most think it will. Originally posted by Jomb At least in Christianity, faith goes before jobs, so that would be idolatry to follow. Acting like People is coming across as using only logic (even gut instincts and past biases would be something you'd believe in or not, belief being a root in religion). Computers are capable of this same logic, and then we'd completely do away with politics. Therefore, there is always going to be faith of some kind in politics, so whether or not it is a religion makes no difference. |
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Wurl  Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6510 days Last view: 6510 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Remember that quite a few of our Founding Fathers, notably Franklin, were atheists. |
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Skydude Armos Knight   Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6742 days Last view: 6742 days |
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| Most of them were deists and/or masons.
And Jomb, the intent wasn't to get rid of any involvement of the two, but rather, as clearly stated by James Madison in justifying it: "The people feared one sect might obtain a preeminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform." The idea is merely to make sure no one religion is persecuting the others. Which is exactly what we're having now, with that one "religion" superceding all others being atheism! As for the state in Spain way back when, ask anyone who's knowledgeable about that and they'll tell you that the Church was used as an excuse for doing that...not the reason for it. So blaming it on religion is hardly appropriate. That would've been done without religion in place. Religion just provided a good scapegoat for it. Hitler would've chosen other groups to persecute more strongly than the Jews in the holocaust if need be. Religion isn't the reason there, it's the excuse. Big difference. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6470 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| Atheism isn't a religion.
The "War on Christmas" was over hyped by the media to a massive extent. No one seriously cares about "...under God..." in the Pledge of Alliegence. No one cares about "In God we trust" on coins. Give an example of how religion is being taken out of our society that is significant. No one will pull you over and arrest you for saying Jesus Christ in a public area, they'll only do that if you're trying to preach to a crowd. Oh, seperation of church and state is so that religion doesn't end up as a government and we don't turn into a theocracy or go and make believing religion illegal. (First amendment protects religion from the state.) |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6483 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| preaching to a crowd is illegal? when did that happen? | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6469 days |
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| It wouldn't surprise me if that happened; the liberals are taking over. Trying to help people by preaching is such a crime... *sarcasm*
Some of you might not like that, if you've already made your mind on what you believe, but the preachers could give hope to some of the people who are without beliefs and searching for answers, or the homeless to believe good will come to them when it all ends... It's stupid that there are laws against that; it just plain stupid and wrong!!! I apologize about my bitterness; I just ultimately think we should be free to preach or exp (edited by Skyon on 03-23-06 01:17 PM) (edited by Skyon on 03-23-06 01:18 PM) |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6475 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| I think it depends on the type of preaching... Since I have heard NOTHING about it being illegal in any way, shape, or form, except for government officials doing it in their role as officials.
EDIT: Except if it's in such a way as to attempt to inspire disorderly conduct. Inciting a riot is still illegal, but that's only in a few cases. (edited by Skreename on 03-23-06 02:00 PM) |
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Deleted User Banned Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6469 days |
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Originally posted by Skreename You're absolutly right, that would be wrong; if there was a type of "preaching" to emphasize a wild fanatic behavior, then yeah that action should be ceased. |
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Randy53215 Melon Bug Since: 11-17-05 From: Greenfield, Wisconsin (U.S.A) Last post: 6469 days Last view: 6468 days |
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| Im gonna do the same thing I did before with the last "debate" with everyone. Ok your talking about christians taking a side in politics and supporting them. Well so do many other beliefs/non-beliefs. Look at athiests they support certain canidates. Now why is it a problem if we support/endorse a certain party? Where are our freedoms going that we cannot support people? People support the red-cross, hurricaine relief efforts, etc...
Now I guess what im getting at is whats the big deal? Now keep in mind if this has something to do with seperation between church and state then how come the state isnt keeping seperate from marriages? Because the church was doing marriages first. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6470 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| Sorry, I wasn't specific enough and didn't write what I meant.
Preaching is illegal if it becomes a problem to a building owner, if it's in a government building (you know, causing problems for the people who work there), or if it is telling people to do illegal activities. I question if some of you live in this country or not, it really doesn't seem like it. |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6483 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| well, many of us don't live in "this country"
most of the people in this debate are probably American, but not all are. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6469 days Last view: 6469 days |
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Originally posted by Randy53215 What part of the world are you talking about? I mean, the Church only gained control over marriage from the 10-12th centuries. Prior to that it was a fairly secular thing. But what do I know? I only specialize in this  |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6471 days Last view: 6471 days |
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| Of all the things which have caused suffering and death to human beings throughout recorded history, not counting natural disasters, religion would be at the top of the list. It has been used to justify many a genocide, and much death and destruction upon the "heathens". Some of you will say "BUT IT WAS ONLY AN EXCUSE!!!! NOT THE REASON", to which i say hogwash. That is just what happens when religion is given complete authority. This is why we need seperation of church and state, and why it was one of our founding fathers greatest concepts. To all those millions of people who participated in genocides in the past because of their religion it was not just an excuse, it was divine will which they felt was the true and right thing to do. In retrospect its easy to say it was just an excuse, and maybe it was to the few people on top, but to the great masses it was not. Without the convenient excuse that religion allowed, most of these things simply would not have happened, or would have been fought as a regular war instead of as a "go murder every single one of those sick heathen bastards BECAUSE GOD WILLS IT!" type of affair. There is a great deal we can learn from history, the greatest lesson is that history tends to repeat itself, the greatest indicator of what will happen in the future is what happened in the past. And in this case its perfectly clear, when religion is in control of the government, what happens is genocides, intolerance, crusades, witch hunts, forced conversions, populations kept in a state of ignorance, and inquisitions. | |||
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6742 days Last view: 6742 days |
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| Now I think you're really going overboard with blaming religion there. Particularly with your complete disregard of my arguments, which is really ridiculous. You're blaming the Pope rather than David Koresh, basically. It's bad people who are to blame, not religion. As for religion as the reason, well, the Nazis and the communists proved that you don't need religion to incite massive genocide. So that further shows that it's not religion that's the cause. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6471 days Last view: 6471 days |
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| What i'm saying is just because Christianity in particular is rather settled down now, does'nt mean it cant eventually return to the way it was (very bloody), and when the church is in control of everything and the people are taught to blindly believe what the church tells them, it opens the doors to these sorts of things further down the road, which has happened repeatedly throughout history. When the church is kept out of political power, the likelyhood of such things happening goes down significantly... And no, just because there are other non-religious ways to have a genocide does not invalidate my point in the slightest, that would be like saying because people can die in tornados then hurricanes never cause deaths. The Nazis are not a great example of a non-religious group either, the information i have says they strongly believed god was on their side, in fact the neo-nazi groups of today are even highly religious and represent the extreme of the right-wing. The Catholic church sided with the Axis in WWII, no? | |||
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6742 days Last view: 6742 days |
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| Alright, in each post you just get more and more ridiculous in what you're saying. You're completely psychotic if you actually think Christian religion being in power would cause bloodbaths (particularly since there isn't really a one dominant church that could do that).
And no, actually, you're completely wrong about the Catholic church in world war II. That was one of Mussolini's biggest problems, was that the Pope wouldn't side with him. He actually respected the Church and didn't go and burn down the Vatican. If anything, the Church provided a huge moderating influence in Italy in World War II. And that more than anything shows that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and you're just ranting in your antireligious ways completely mindlessly. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6471 days Last view: 6471 days |
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Is it that i get more ridiculous, or that i'm speaking so much truth it just blows your mind and you cant take it 
Christian groups in power have caused bloodbaths throughout history. We have the Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials (notably less deaths, but still significant), various examples of native peoples being wiped off the planet for being non-christian, the crusades, etc. Even if there is no one dominant church today, that says nothing about the future, and there were multiple groups in the past and still this went on. The fractured groups could unite or one could start repressing the others. If i'm wrong about the catholic church in WWII, then why on earth did the Pope issue an apology about this a few years ago? |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6742 days Last view: 6742 days |
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| The Pope issued an apology that the Church didn't do more than it did. Arguably, they might have had more influence than they did.
And you're just using the textbook "I hate Christianity" examples, which get older, more obselete, and less relevant every time they're brought up, somehow. And this time is no exception. More recent centuries have shown that antireligious forces (recently communism, for example) have been far more dangerous. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6470 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| The KKK work in the name of God still Skydude. | |||
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6483 days Last view: 6469 days |
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| anybody can "work in the name of God".... doesn't mean they -actually- are.... |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Church Endorsed Politics |
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