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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - Display Case - Smoking Marijuana |
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Skydude Armos Knight                     Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| One of the prevailing themes of the arguments seems to be that it's no worse than alcohol or tobacco, and I'm not convinced that's a good argument. As for prohibition, well, marijuana has BEEN illegal and we haven't been having the same kinds of problems, so that one's meaningless.
More importantly, I put out there, do we need another intoxicating substance? Even if it's not as bad as alcohol, which I'm still not convinced of, will it really help to have another one out there? Saying "alcohol is just as bad" isn't an argument for legalizing pot as much as it's an argument for making alcohol illegal as well, if you're going to state negative effects of alcohol. That's like finding some awful thing that it's legal to do, say in corporate accounting, and saying that some other offense that IS illegal should be legal because it's no worse. |
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max Blipper  i'm a pixie !!! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6726 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| why dont you post some reasons why you belive its worse than alcohol and tobacco instead | |||
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| I have, as have others, and no one listened. That's why I wasn't posting in this thread for a while; no one actually paid attention to what was said, and I figured it was a lost cause to try to convince people of it who wouldn't listen no matter what I said. | |||
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max Blipper i'm a pixie !!! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6726 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| you posted like a hundred times in this thread which posts should i read | |||
RedFlameZero Bot  Since: 01-28-06 From: Syracuse Last post: 6480 days Last view: 6472 days |
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my Soluton to the Evil Leaf: Nuke Columbia and any other Marijuana Exporting Countrys then Shoot all current Smokers .. Problem solved  (edited by beneficii on 03-23-06 12:39 PM) (edited by beneficii on 03-23-06 12:40 PM) (edited by beneficii on 03-23-06 12:40 PM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6466 days Last view: 6466 days |
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| Skydude, the question shouldn't be its harmfulness or distastefulness as a substance, this shouldn't have much to do with its legal status at all. Well, at least, the nature of the substance can't be considered in a vacuum, as it's not the job of teh gubermint to tell us what we can and can't do with our lives without compelling reasons to do so... I mean, many peoples' diets are far more harmful to them than any controlled substance they may ingest. Should the government be banning saturated fats? No, at most on issues of self-harm through poor lifestyle choices, their role is regulating for health and safety standards (in food, or in other things) and ensuring information about things is easily available so people can make choices themselves.
The central issue is, or should be, that keeping it illegal and punishing people for using it it utterly pointless, a waste of police resources and insulting to grown adults who should have the power to make these choices for themselves. Or, if you prefer, we can go the a harm minimisation approach, where legalising or at least decriminalising will actually reduce net harm done by marijuana. In the case of marijuana, substantial harm is done by the hard-line prohobition and the punishment of it, with people being jailed for no good reason and a criminal trade in the substance being fostered to meet the inevitable demand. Meanwhile virtually zero harm is prevented by the illegality of cannabis since no-one ever says "well I wish i could smoke marijuana but it's illegal... so lets go study and become productive citizens instead!" A simple cost-benefit analysis compels us to say illegality is pointless and counterproductive and "it's bad for you" is NOT an argument to that. (edited by Arwon on 03-22-06 05:19 PM) (edited by Arwon on 03-22-06 05:27 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6468 days Last view: 6468 days |
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| Rom Manic - I dont remember! Where did we last discuss this?
I myself am a non-smoker. I dont smoke anything, not even cigarettes... but with Marijuana it is so ridiculous that its a felony that even i have to step up and admit it should be legal. Now, if we were talking about heroin i'd have to say that one should be illegal. |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| Well, Jomb, that's going from one extreme to the other. It doesn't have to be LEGAL for penalties on it to be reduced.
Though one of the issues for the penalties comes down to the economics of law. Basically, the idea of a punishment as a deterrent comes down to several factors, and one of those is the idea of potential cost of engaging in the action. If there's a 100% probability of being caught, the penalty has to be just great enough to negate the benefit to the people engaging in the illegal action. If there's a 50% probability of being caught, then to make it not happen, the penalty needs to be twice as harsh for that effect. If there's less than a 10% chance, as there likely is, then for optimum deterrence, there would need to be penalties seen as draconian. This approach is often taken to be better than high probability/low penalty due to the costs of enforcement. This is not to say that the way things are is correct, mind you. This is the reasoning behind it, which is actually logically rather sound. There are awful penalties for being caught, but as all of you in this thread supporting legalization know, it's still a rather low percentage. So it's your choice to engage in the activity based on the risk, and you've chosen that it's worth the risk. That's the economic argument for it, anyway, based on the idea of the rational consumer. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6468 days Last view: 6468 days |
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| I'd have to reject an economic model for justice. That kind of system leads to injustice, with lives being ruined over petty bullshit. When someone has their life literally destroyed beyond repair over a damn marijuana joint, they have gone from being a "perpetrator" to being a victim of the system itself. Being the victim of an injustice can cause a person to become bitter and hateful in their outlook. Taking hope that things will get better away from someone causes them to no longer care what happens, and be more likely to committ more crimes. Justice should be based on what punishment is appropriate and fitting to the crime, not over a cost-analysis of whats going to gain the most money for the government, be politically the best move, or "deter crime" which is a load of crap. Penalties for crimes have been rising and rising over the years as politicians win votes by being "tough on crime". The crime rate has not notably gone down, in many cases its risen. Its this mentallity which has made America the prison capital of the world bar-none, even beating out China by a huge margin. Its not working and its costing us tons of money. | |||
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| I think the issue of what justice is could consume a whole 'nother thread, as it's a big issue. But basically, the whole idea of the penalty is that people know what it is. If you know that doing this might throw you in prison, then you make a choice based on the value of doing whatever illegal action you're considering, and decide whether or not it outweighs the costs. That is, the cost of prison time and the probability of that occurring.
Essentially, you're taking a gamble. Some people win, and some people lose. Is it truly 'injustice' because of that? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| It is injustice putting people away for doing something that is the same as drinking. | |||
Supersuit Goomba Since: 01-17-06 From: crap-for-weather Michigan Last post: 6789 days Last view: 6789 days |
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| Smokin' doobies is not a good idea, and won't be legal if congress can collectively produce a human thought. I think the only possible way marijuana would be legal in the U.S. would be if we had no other way of making money, and introduced it as a product with a sin tax like booze and cigarretes. Because of its not-as-addictive nature, huge amounts of people would use it more than their brain and lungs can afford, and then America would not only be fat and mediocre, we'd be fat and blacklunged and stupid. For those of you who think weed has no harmful effects, I'd like to relate these lyrics from Primus's song DMV (I'm pretty sure Les Claypool knows what he's talking about):
"When I need relief I spell it thc Perhpas you may know vaguely what I mean I sit back and smoke away huge chunks of memory As I slowly inflict upon myself a full lobotomy-call it pointless" Anything you roll up and smoke is doing damage to your lungs, a joint is no less of an asbestos cylinder than a cigarette, quite more in fact. If the topic was 'eating marijuana', more of the arguments i keep hearing for it would make sense. |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination No, it would be injustice if the cops suddenly decided to pull it. As it is, people know what they're getting into, and they choose to do it anyway. If I decide to go vandalise a building, if I get caught and punished, it's my own fault because I decided to go do it. And if it's the same as drinking, why don't they drink, which is legal? And just one note on health problems for alcohol...liver damage is only going to occur if you're drinking MASSIVE amounts of alcohol, constantly. |
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Zem Permabanned. Flaming, trolling, reregistering. Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6788 days Last view: 6788 days |
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| I like Primus.
A lot. But citing song lyrics as proof of your arguments is fucking retarded. |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon  Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6486 days Last view: 6471 days |
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| It's so much easier to get weed than it is to get alcohal. At least when you're underage.
It pretty much almost is legal. The only people who I've heard of getting caught are some dealers. So don't deal... and you'll be fine in America. Why do you care if people smoke mary jane? It's not like it affects you in any way shape or form. It's like if I moon you, but you can't see me. Say you're against being mooned... but if you don't surround yourself with it... it won't affect you at all. And "Because of its not-as-addictive nature, huge amounts of people would use it more than their brain and lungs can afford.." What? Because it's not addictive..... people would... use it more? How about... people who enjoy smoking.. would probably smoke as much as people typically drink now. On the weekends. And alcohal is linked to several types of cancers. In fact, my grandpa was an alcoholic and a non-smoker.. who died of cancer. Go see my last post if you care for proof. |
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Kingpin Since: 11-21-05 From: Amarillo, TX Last post: 6471 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Well, here is my view. My dad was addicted. Because of that, we ended up homeless until we got him arrested and we moved back in here. In moderation, I guess its ok, being high 24/7 on the other hand, not a good thing.
On legalization, the people who buy it and the people who sell it would lost out on it being legal. If it were legal, there would be companies selling it just like cigarettes are sold now, it would be taxed, and most likely the age for smoking it would be 21. Then, people buying it would pay more than they do, the dealers would be out of a job, and a lot of people would be doing it illegally anyway. Leave it illegal, its better for everyone. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by Kiraxo + *decriminilization* is the buzz (heh) word when it comes to what you're thinking of. This way people will be FINED for posessing personal amounts rather than facing a criminal record to haunt them the rest of their lives and possible jail time/ridiculous probation. |
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Tarale    2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Pot is decriminalised here. Personally, I think that's a good thing.
Now, whether marijuana is "good" or "bad" in my eyes ultimately comes down to the individual. If the individual smokes it (recreationally) several times a day, needs it in order to "think straight", needs it to get to sleep at night, etc, then that's bad. If the individual smokes it every now and then as a special thing, that's not so bad. I wouldn't consider it any worse than somebody who drinks every now and then. For all we know it may have mild benefits like some alcoholic drinks do too... *shrugs* If the individual smokes it for pain relief or relief of symptoms of conditions such as Multiple Sclerosis and suffers pain or poor quality of life without it, then smoking pot is a good thing for that person. Pot's very different for different people. Some people abuse it, some people are responsible with it, some people find it helpful. I guess in a lot of ways it's like people have different personal relationships with alcohol.... *shrugs* Legally, I'm happy with the decriminalisation that occurs here. However, I'm not sure if there are any exceptions for those using it for medicinal/pain relief purposes or not (I'd assume one would have to prove their claim for using it that way). I would hope that there would be... For the record, I smoke pot. I don't do it often, but I use it as a pain reliever on occasion. Since my surgery I've been suffering some fairly nasty pains at the site of my surgery that the doctors can do nothing about. Prescription painkillers are fraught with danger; potentially addictive, etc.... so I'll self-medicate for the pain if and when needed.  (edited by Tarale on 03-23-06 05:35 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6468 days Last view: 6468 days |
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| Skydude - Actually many people do not know what the penalty is until its too late. Most people dont spend their time hanging out in law libraries looking up criminal statutes, and there was never any class in my high school about what actions are crimes and what the penalties would be. I mentioned earlier in this thread my friend doing 16 years on account of his underage GF, he sure never thought he was facing 16 years, infact he did'nt even know a crime took place, hence signing the birth certificate. When you get down to it very few Americans can be bothered to watch the news, let alone do law research.
But regardless of any of that, the punishment should fit the crime. I dont care if a law were to say that you'd get life in prison for jay-walking, that would'nt make it any better when someone did get life over it. It still would'nt make it their fault that the system is so greedy and slimey as to actually ruin their life over something silly. Additionally, many people who commit these sorts of petty crimes are very young themselves, and for many of them there is no second chance. Everyone should get a chance to redeem themselves over foolish mistakes made in their youth, but as it is now there is no possibility of redemption in amny cases. This sort of system raises the crime rate, i've seen first hand the hopelessness of many of these people, who now feel like their only chance to get anywhere in life would now be through crime, and that they have nothing more to lose anyway, having already lost just about everything. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by RedFlameZero Actually, that solves two problems. We no longer have to worry about illegal shipments of Pot coming into the homeland, and then people can start to focus on getting some good homegrown going (Ours kicks ass, not sure about America's). EDIT: 3 problems, actually. No more black market economy for the import of foreign pot, thus putting more money back into the system rather than sending it overseas. (edited by Rom Manic on 03-23-06 09:22 PM) |
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