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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - 1nes and Zer0s in the Blood... |
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Kutske                  Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6812 days Last view: 6812 days |
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| Recently, I've been thinking about that whole cliched Problem of A.I. Really, what constitutes a "human" as we think of the term? In the end, all that we are, all our thought is merely electrical signals jumping between synapses in the brain. Isn't that what a machine is? Isn't that how a computer operates?
But, more onto the subject at hand, I've been pondering a thing I've come to call organic binary. True or false, that's all binary is -- at the end of a day, absolutely everything that a computer could possibly do can be reduced to a simple string of zeroes and ones, albeit a very long string in some cases. Is it possible, then, that our blood could somehow be used as imput for a computer? Could we not somehow stain our blood in such a way as to imprint organic ones and zeroes that could be read by a specifically-designed machine? Certainly, no such technology currently exists, and if it ever will, we're still a long way off. I just wonder, because I'm not very scientifically-minded, do you think this is possible? That blood in a living creature, rather than mechanical triggers in a CPU, could be used to sustain binary and thus, computing? |
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Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...    Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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I would rather call the human brain a analogue computer than a digital one... if you want really to call it a computer. Besides, computers have alot of problems with stuff outside mathetics. Computers have a hard time to think outside the box in other words. It dosen't matter if the processing power of the computer get's much better, it still would have problems learning new stuff without the help of a human.  (stuff that a regular human would figure out by itself).
Computers don't have to be electrical to be a computer obviously. The oldest case of computers are mechancial ones, and most of thoose was sadly not finished. And some people assume that computers in the future might have a biological part, just to make up for it's weakness. Eh, call it a computer if you wish. A brain recieves information, processes them and sometimes outputs them like a computer do. Just with... alot more randomness. It will be obviously a problem when more advanced AI comes along. Would it really be moral to permamently delete a computer program that have feelings and acts like a normal human would? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Biological feedback is inherently different than computer feedback simply due to randomness. A computer is a manufactured thing. When one part "mutates" or is improperly produced the effects generally aren't spectacular. However a biotic thing's mutations can lead to something like, say, the complex eye or any other level of changes.
However, we delete humans all the time, and I see moral problem with that. The difference will arise in the level of humanity that an artificial intelligence will have. Is it a cold thing that's "feelings" are causes of pure efficiency...does it actually "think". The question from a religious point is whether it has a soul. The question from the logical standpoint is whether or not it lives. I'm not a specialist in ethics, biology or complex enough maths to even think of answers to these questions...However I do advocate going back to simpler methods and find that artificial intelligences are abominations. Sure they're fun to play around with, but to create something like that (no, not taking material that is already functional...but creating something that is ARTIFICIAL) is simply tempting fate and touching things that ought not be touched. |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6812 days Last view: 6812 days |
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Ailure: Would it really be moral to permamently delete a computer program that have feelings and acts like a normal human would? That question, of course, is the pivotal point of many a science-fiction feature. But as for this topic, I'm more interested in whether or not blood can carry binary information. Same goes for you, Zam. I mean, I'm up for the whole A.I. philosophical debate, but I'm really curious as to whether blood could carry information as I've suggested. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| DNA!
It's in your blood and every cell and tells us WTF u r |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6812 days Last view: 6812 days |
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| ¬_¬'
I mean machine-readable data. That is to say, could I carry around a text doccument in my blood? Imagine if you could type up your living will and store it in your blood -- that'd virtually do away with forgeries and disputes. The technology could also replace dogtags; presuming that you don't lose 100% of your blood, that is. It'd be like Johnny Mnemonic, without the creepy hobo who thinks he's Jesus. Anyway, the entire reason I'm asking is because I was throwing around the idea of using blood as a carrier for information as a plot point in a story of mine, and I just wanted to see if it's even remotely feasable. |
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Koneko Plasma Whisp  Since: 11-17-05 From: Tartarus. We get faster internet than you. Last post: 6466 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Well, besides giving each blood cell a one or zero designation, you'd also have to give it a sort of identifier that would tell a computer where it goes in the sequence, as it's incredibly impractical to keep all of them physically in order.
But also, damn you. I was writing a short story with this as the main premise. *shrug* |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6812 days Last view: 6812 days |
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| Oh yeah? Well I've been kicking my idea around since the turn of the millenium, and my dad can beat up your dad >:p
"1nes and Zer0s in the Blood" is actually the title of a chapter from the story. Erm, I say "chapter," but it's written in script form. But anyway, developing this idea, sequencing is indeed a problem. Perhaps the stain could imprint each platelet with the entire binary sequence, or each individual zero and one could be numbered so the machine knows where it goes in the sequence. Or perhaps nanomachines could simply be placed in the bloodstream, and they could be smart enough to work their way up or downstream to the location of the syringe. Well, in any event, thank god for suspension of disbelief. This is interesting, though, let's keep kicking around ideas for futurey biologically-integrated technology. Something I thought up that's probably on a lot of people's minds already are what in one story are known colloquially as "tags." At birth, a new part of the routine of fixing up the infant is to implant a device in the wrist which is just smaller than a granule of salt. This keeps information such as social security number, bloodtype, date of birth and such. Later in life, it can also play the role of a credit card; instead of swiping a card through a slot, you wave your wrist over a device that reads the tag. Although it's illegal, you can modify your tag to carry additional information. Implants and National I.D. are scary thoughts to us, but in the story tags are used in, people are used to it. I've got more, but I'll stop here for now; don't wanna get to detracted from bloody binary. |
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netscape Grizzo Since: 12-30-05 Last post: 6495 days Last view: 6491 days |
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| You could encode digital information in DNA, don't know how stable it would be. You could also encode genetic code as digital information, and that's exactly what the Human Gnome Project did.
However it gets messy with living critter made from the DNA. You'd not only have to record it's DNA, but everything about each cell down to it's quantum level. Getting fully accurate quantum information about each particle is impossible. If you scan it's speed (well more accurately velocity, speed plus direction) you'll mess up it's position, if you scan it's position you'll mess up it's speed/direction. This is known as Hindenburg's uncertainty principle. The universe's way of sticking it to those noisy humans. If you some how manage to get around that. (There was scientific experiment where they got around that and transported/teleported a single particle, wouldn't work for a scanner but you never know what someone can think of) Then you'd have another problem. See quantum values (charge spin ect) are analog. They can be anywhere from a whole number to a decimal infinite digits long. So some of them just can't be converted to analog accurately. "well we could get em pretty close" you might say, and you'd be right. However in Chaos theory is a principle known as the butterfly effect. Essentially in complex systems a slight change will snowball into a big change. Take for example your car piston. One wayward metal fragment can scratch up a chamber and suddenly it don't work the same. A space shuttle launch is another example. One valve lock up and you get what happened in 1986. Change a single gear in a swiss watch and it throws the whole thing off. Biological organisms have alot of redundancy systems to try to put things back in order, but even they aren't perfect. The liver's a chemical powerhouse constantly regulating the body's chemistry to keep it livable. It does a remarkable job. The immune system kills rogue invaders as well as ill formed cells. On average the immune system kills 4 cells a day that if left would grow in to cancer. However in some people some bad cells slip through, some viruses kill before they can be stopped. Some the immune just can't win against.(HIV for example), some poisons kill before they can be cleaned. Chemically they're just tiny variables in the huge equation that is human biochemistry That's another thing. See the universe has a principle called entropy. Entropy means things grow colder, quieter, less complex, and energetic overtime. Entropy means your car brakes down from a complex system able to move to, an old hunker system rusting in your lawn. So when you scan yourself your copy would have a number of errors from rounding it's particle's information down to usable values. These would combine with any errors you made simulating physics (extremely hard at our current state of not knowing them all) to change your copy's biochemistry, since it would now be different the whole system would change and entropy would kick in almost certainly. In short your copy would get sick and die, if it's biological systems were ever functional enough in there to be alive. Course you could take a short cut and just scan the neural circuits and simulate their function. Then it could use a digital body no more complex then Mario's n64 body. |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6812 days Last view: 6812 days |
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| netscape, what in the hell are you talking about? My "copy?" Maybe you posted in the wrong topic by accident, but this topic has absolutely nothing to do with clones or copying genes or anything even remotely like that. While an interesting read, that lengthy post has absolutely nothing to do with anything that anybody has said thus far in this topic. Really, wow, that was totally out of left-field.
I won't even type what I was gonna until you explain what that post is supposed to mean. I'm just guessing you posted in the wrong topic by mistake. |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places  Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by netscape Hehehehe, gnome, hehehehe. (Pssst... you meant Genome.) |
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netscape Grizzo Since: 12-30-05 Last post: 6495 days Last view: 6491 days |
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Originally posted by Kutske Yeah the first paragraph was relevent to your post. The rest... Just some mentle meandering loosly based on it. Originally posted by Cheveyo Chowilawu oops kirk in wraith of kahn yell: SSSSSPPPPPPPEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLL CCCHHHHHEEEEEEECCKKK!!!!!!!!! (edited by netscape on 01-30-06 04:57 PM) |
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Vulkar Goomba Since: 12-02-05 Last post: 6843 days Last view: 6843 days |
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| Okay, I didn't read through everyone elses posts, so what I say may have already been mentioned.
First of all, blood only contains oxygen, and the structure for your body. Nothing else. No intelligence(except for the cells), and no real life. It is only a barely alive liquid that is pumped through your body. Now, I get the feeling that your idea is for the DNA to make a living person. Theoritically possible, but also impossible. You would have to go through billions of strands or DNA, figure out about the brain, find a way to copy it with machinery, and then build it. That would be the much harder way around this process. However, if we really want intelligent computers, we need another way. The way I see it is that we humans are only biological computers. A core programming at the begining, and so it learns, adding additional programming to our mind for our entire life. So, this means that we only need one key, that is learning. The rest will come with time. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| DNA is a blueprint of your body. All your features, all your personality traits, everything. Thats what DNA is. It isn't 1's and 0's that can be decoded. It's A, T, C, or G. Adenine, Thymine, Cytosine and Guanine.
But ACTG are just components of the DNA strand. The way the are composed is what makes the blueprint. And during conception, or whenever the egg and sperm combine, thats when your blueprint is formed. Your daddy made a sperm, and your mommy made and egg (I think it's 23 chromosomes in the ovum and 23 chromosomes in the sperm). When both gametes combined, they made you, and only a half (The 23 that nature selected) of those chromosomes make up the zygote. This is why you have traits from both your mom and your dad. Depending if the Y chromosome is passed on from your Dad, you will either be a boy or a girl. Chromosomes are paired like so, in 23 pairs: XX XX XX XX ... XX XY XX That XY is in the male. In the case of a female, the Y is replaced with X. Anyway, you could make an AI that was similar to yourself. Not by extracting DNA, but through programming it yourself. Ask yourself questions like: What is DNA? What does DNA look like and why? How many combinations of ACTG can there be? What attributes do each combination make? How can I program these combinations? - A strand of DNA is composed of 4 of the 5 nucleotides that comprise both DNA and RNA. Adenine is paired with Thymine, and Guanine is paired with Cytosine using a hydrogen base bond. The Nucleotide not mentioned here is Uracil, which replaces Thymine when looking at RNA and is produced by the degredation of Cytosine. - DNA is found in all living things on Earth, but for the more complex cells (Also known as Eukaryotes) it is mostly found in the Nucleus of the cell. - Both DNA and RNA are in the shape of a double helix. This is because of the pairing that is done to make up the structure of DNA and RNA. - There are 64 possible combinations of ACTG. You could program your human shell using 3 things: 1) It must be able to learn. Everything you do is from learned experience, so you can either program it to learn, or program it with a set database of knowledge. You learn through all 5 senses (Touch, Taste, Sound, Sight, Smell) and the AI therefore can only interpret 2 of those. 2) It must use its behaviour according to it's "DNA" structure and it's learned experience. If you program it to be modest, it won't brag about itself. If you program it to be obnoxious, it will call you names and be loud and belligerent. But those can all change because of learned behaviour. 3) It MUST be self aware. It must know it lives within a virtual reality. Alot of people would disagree, but thats what Intelligence really is. Being sentient. But off the topic of AI. Can you clone yourself? Maybe (For a scientist). There is a dominant gene in all people, and this gene is dominant in a certain way throughout a bloodline (AKA Family Tree). It's the main reason related people have a mutated birth when they have a kid and why incest is wrong. There is the odd case that gene is non existant, and thus having a child between 2 cousins (Or other relatives) is possible. My theory is: Take a sperm sample from yourself and an ovum from any animal (Humans included). By disabling that dominant gene in one of the sperm, you can insert that nucleus into an Ovum and perhaps bond them through conception. Chromosomes overwrite each other and boom, you're looking at yourself 30 years ago. Then there's always the Dolly method, where they cloned a lamb or some such animal similar. EDIT: Just read netscape's post, adding another 2 cents Engineering human DNA is not impossible. You need the glucose bases, the hydrogen bonds, and the nano technology to operate on something so small. Other things too, of course, but to simplify things I'll keep those for WikiPedia to explain. Sure, you could copy someone's DNA, but you still need to make a nucleus for a sperm or ovum that contains that DNA. For example, you can't just transfuse someone's DNA into another persons body and expect them to morph into that person. It starts from the seed and works it's way up. But do we really want to sell our souls for money? Life is God's gift to Earth, and no matter how much the Agnostics of this world want to make money off of cloning technology, it should stick to being scientific purposes. I would frown on the man who capitalizes selling people for cash. What God fearing man wouldn't? For once, George Bush is right. Cloning should be banned forever. Perhaps not research and experimenting, but cloning technology itself. Hell, cloning can do alot of things for this world. But if you have any good morals, you should never sell your soul for cash. (edited by Rom Manic on 02-04-06 11:32 PM) |
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