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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - The Pit of Despair - Just to clarify some issues about ROMs... | New poll | | Thread closed |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Some of you (not all of you) seem all fine and great about ROMs. I do too... but for those of you that think they're "legal" and that ROM hacking is "legal"...
WHAT SHITHOLE DID YOU JUST CRAWL OUT OF!!?!?!?!? Apparently, you need to open your eyes: Here's Nintendo!
And more... TO SUMMARIZE: Every act of ROM hacking and owning a ROM is illegal. This board's subject is illegal. This board is at potential of getting shut down by authority. Will it happen? Maybe not. Do I want this board to go down? No. Do I like ROMs? Yes. I'm just sending this message to shoot it through some of your heads that THERE IS NO LEGAL PART IN HAVING A ROM. It is 100% SATURATED COMPLETE FULL-OF-BEANS ABSOLUTELY BREAKING THE LAW. Understand? |
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Hiryuu Sword Maiden Retired Admin Since: 11-17-05 From: Nerima District - Tokyo, Japan Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by Blue Falkon Yes, at least in the sense of what you seemed to be worried about. Do the majority of us care? No. Obviously we don't or there wouldn't have been a board about this created OVER FOUR YEAR AGO... My take is there's a certain line as to what's illegal and what isn't illegal in terms of ROM owning/hacking as it is. Obviously, it's backed by quite a large amount of people and, as of yet, I don't think there has been any legal action taken against this site for the sheer fact that it isn't a site that is serving up ROMs; we deal with modification and other aspects, or at least that's how I view it. In fact, we make it quite clear that we don't want ROMs or ROM links on this site. That's a bannable offense right there and posts are edited by that content. ROM Hacking, I'm pretty sure, is legal. It's basically taking what's given and playing a different game with it. It's not for profit as well; the ROM hackers who hack here aren't getting rich off of this stuff whatsoever. Whether you believe that or not, I couldn't care...but I would think it's kinda stupid that you would come down on the basic essence of a site and expect everyone to even believe you. That's like going into any religous fanatic whatever and saying that 'x religion' is wrong...except here I doubt we could care less what you have to say about it. |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Um, yes, believe me?
Uh... huh. So, tell me how you think ROM hacking is legal when you - unless you're magic - need a ROM in order to hack it? Especially when modifying an original product is infringing copyright. Ever take a business class? No? Take one. (Though a law class would be more appropriate but I've never taken one of those.) I posted this for those silly people who keep going "it's legal blah blah blah". If you're fans of Nintendo you'll read what they have to say. Silly not to. And no, I'm not saying you should all stop, I'm just trying to crush your hopes of these acts being legal. (edited by Blue Falkon on 12-05-05 10:54 AM) |
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richyawyingtmv Bouncy Since: 11-18-05 From: England Last post: 6433 days Last view: 6430 days |
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I feel Rom Hacking is totally legal.
My reasoning? A little device called the Action Replay/Gameshark. Isn't that basically the same as rom hacking? Changing data in a game? I think it is. If Nintendo had anything against Rom Hacking in general, the Action Replay, or any cheat cartridges, would not exist. |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by richyawyingtmv I've never really used a Gameshark but I know what they do... and I heard that game developers actually hated it at first but then decided that they can use it to their advantage (you'd think fangames would too...). I'm not really sure about Gameshark... I'm not sure if it changes the hexes to what they want OR if they're just unlocking debug hexes that Nintendo already put in. If they're unlocking them, which is what I believe they're doing, then that's still legal. This isn't, however. This is infringing material that isn't even authentic. If you believe it's legal you'll have to take it up with them but by what I posted, it won't work. |
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Hiryuu Sword Maiden Retired Admin Since: 11-17-05 From: Nerima District - Tokyo, Japan Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Game Genie, Gameshark, AR, whatever isn't endorsed by any gaming console industries but that doesn't necessarily mean it's illegal either.
Same should pretty much hold true for hacking. I doubt Fu's gonna get burninated for Super Demo World anytime soon (if he does, I'd laugh my ass off). |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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First of all, the Nintendo legal FAQ is completely stacked in Nintendo's favor, and conveniently omits the law unless it favors them. For example, they say that ROM dumping, in and of itself, is 100% illegal, which is patently false. If you own a cartridge, you can legally dump it and there is NOTHING that Nintendo can do. NOTHING. Also, if you download a ROM of a cart you own, especially if it's the same revision, then you can't tell if that ROM was legally dumped or not.
Cheat devices most certainly ARE hacking, they are the exact same thing that people on this board do. You know the "master codes" that some games have? Those master codes are to bypass checksum validation routines that will cause the game to refuse to boot. Distributing hacks as IPS patches is legal if you don't include any data copyrighted by anyone else without their permission, as IPS patches do not include any of the original ROM. Nintendo is full of shit with half of their legal FAQ. For example, they claim that emulators themselves are inherently illegal, despite the fact that they have a bevy of legitimate uses, which would fall under Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios (the "Betamax" case). In the Betamax case, the Supreme Court ruled that a company was not liable for creating a technology that some customers may use for copyright infringing purposes, so long as the technology is capable of substantial non-infringing uses. Since you can use emulators to debug and test your own 100% homebrewed code, I would say that it is a substantial noninfringing use, especially when it's extremely difficult to test the code on the real hardware. In short, unless something majorly changes, I believe that ROM hacking is generally legal, as long as you follow a few guidelines (such as, do not distribute the original ROM nor the hacked one, but rather just a patch to convert the former into the latter). This is based on my non-lawyer interpretation of the actual law, and not in any way on some "legal FAQ" somewhere. (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:08 PM) (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:08 PM) (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:11 PM) |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH Please tell me the definition of copyright. Copying the file to the computer is your first mistake and oops, you're fucked if you're caught redhanded for that. Now, let's be hypothetical and think about if that was true, that you could dump it legally. Hm, but now we're distributing them on websites to other people? Oh well look at that! For some reason, that's another crime! Let's pull out a lawbook. The rest I just skipped through with my eyes and couldn't care much for, as you might be right. Something tells me that you're not though. Edit: As for penalties of infringing copyright. Do you know vBulletin? It's a popular forum thing. Anyway, I reported a 14 year old online for copying the forum without paying for it. Now, that's very similar to using these ROMs. This 14 year old, who lives in the US, had his life practically ruined. He was arrested and charged thousands of dollars just because I reported this guy. Why'd I report him? Oh, he just pissed me off and I knew what he was doing, that's all. But that's a few years ago when I was anti-piracy, which I'm not really now. Don't think that these acts may not fly without penalty. (edited by Blue Falkon on 12-05-05 01:14 PM) |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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Copyright law only provides for damages if you distribute a ROM illegally, it says nothing about merely possessing the ROM. Copyright law also states that you can backup your own media legally. You're right, it's not technically legal to download a ROM from the Internet, but if you dump it yourself, then you are 100% legal, regardless of anything Nintendo says.
Also, this site doesn't distribute ROMs, only IPS patches. Distributing those patches is only illegal if you include someone else's copyrighted work in the patch without permission. People like you are the reason that, from time to time, I actually visit Nintendo's official forums to debunk that crap. Despite the fact that I've talked about emulators and ROMs quite a bit there, I've yet to be banned. Edit: Also, you're a dick for potentially ruining a 14-year old's future life over something as piddly as this. You should really be pissed off at the commercial pirates, who actually do cause great damage, as they are selling their games as if they were legitimate, and taking money directly away from Nintendo. Totally separate situation from someone using forum software illegally (which I still don't condone, but to ruin his life? Asshole...) or someone using ROMs that they downloaded. Besides, tell me the practical difference between buying a used NES game and downloading the ROM. Nintendo doesn't make any money in either case. (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:17 PM) (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:18 PM) |
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Hiryuu Sword Maiden Retired Admin Since: 11-17-05 From: Nerima District - Tokyo, Japan Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by Blue Falkon Think you're still missing the bit about 'we aren't profiting off of something that was commercially made'. We don't charge the stuff. |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH Copyright prevents copying, period. That's where the name comes from. I'm not too keen on that part of the law to argue further with that aspect but I've always learned that that's the main part of it. At my school, you can have the police come to your door if you're found just saving a picture from the internet and putting it on something like a project. That's rare but they do complain. You're probably right about the IPS patches. The Nintendo forums aren't run by Nintendo, genius. Just because they're official doesn't mean that the legal staff members of Nintendo are the ones administrating the forums. Talking about emulators won't ban you, posting them up will. |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if: ROMs are "computer software", and I think it could be argued that, if you use the ROM and store the cart away, that the law has not been violated, as the cart is your "backup" copy, to be redumped if your ROM gets destroyed (same as one, for example, would copy an audio CD and put the original in storage). |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by LocalHUnder section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if: Then perhaps so, but people usually don't do it themselves, they get it from others who have done it and who have distributed it illegally... just because you're not the one who distributed them doesn't make you innocent. =/ |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Originally posted by LocalHEnsata. DS emulator packed in their own DS devkit. The court rests your honor. |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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What? Of course it does. If I've dumped my own carts, and not distributed the dumps, then how am I "not innocent"? And the law only concerns distribution of copyrighted works - if I only download ROMs, then I believe there aren't any current laws being violated on my part (although there are efforts to criminalize downloading in the same way that distribution is currently illegal).
Kyoufu: Exactly my point, really. They make blanket statements like "Emulators are illegal", but yet they know it to be false, as their own authorized emulators are obviously legal, and third-party emulators are legal because they have substantial non-infringing uses, and thus are no different than a VCR in terms of the law. Instead of "time-shifting", you have "format-shifting". Hell, one of the recent DMCA exemptions was specifically for copiers for "obsolete" systems, which I would consider at least pre-32bit. (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:33 PM) |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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BlueFalkon.PC++;
BlueFalkon.Reputation<<1; |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH Nintendo is not the only one to complain about ROMs you know. Let's get off the subject of Nintendo because half the stuff I see you saying is completely incorrect (although a lot of it I have found to be true as well) and half the stuff I'm saying I don't have proper knowledge in. Let's think about ethics. What would you do if you spent a year or more making a game, a really good game, and then just a little while after releasing it people start throwing ROMs around of it and you lose over 15% of your sales? And don't give me bullshit saying "15% is low who cares?" as that 15% doesn't even come close to cover your bills for that year. Do you think companies have no reason to complain? (edited by Blue Falkon on 12-05-05 01:44 PM) |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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Listen:
I AM NOT SAYING THAT DISTRIBUTION OF ROMS WITHOUT PERMISSION IS LEGAL. I *am* saying that personal dumping is legal, and downloading ROMs that you own carts for, while not technically legal, is fine from a practical standpoint. You're just trying to extend the situation further than the law provides. When it comes to ROMs, the only source that matters is the law - it doesn't matter what any game company says. Give me concrete proof that it's illegal to dump your own carts and I'll retract that statement. Until then, a blanket statement that "all ROMs are illegal" is patently incorrect. And I'm not even including homebrew ROMs in the discussion, which are 100% legal no matter what the case. (edited by LocalH on 12-05-05 01:48 PM) |
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Blue Falkon Hoarder Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada Last post: 6637 days Last view: 6637 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH ... I already agreed with you there. You just like... backed up. Far. Very, very far. Plus you didn't answer my question about ethics. |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6431 days Last view: 6431 days |
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Ethics don't enter into it. Your reputation, Mr. Falkon, is dropping at least as fast as your postcount is rising. You'd better stop until drastic measures are taken.
Also... 1) This is General Emulation, not Holy Wars. 2) Thread title is "just to clarify some issues about ROMs", not "just to hammer in the obviously wrong fact that I'm always right". IOW, stop posting. Please. |
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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - The Pit of Despair - Just to clarify some issues about ROMs... | | Thread closed |