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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking-Related Releases - Zelda: Parallel Worlds *Released!* New poll | |
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Kailieann



 





Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6282 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 08:26 AM Link | Quote
And therein lies your critical error. The gameplay of any hack should not revolve around "all the tiny exploits you can do", because out of all the people who might want to play your hack, less than 10% are going to know about those exploits.

And if you're going to disregard that and release a hack in which players will have little or no chance of surviving without being an expert player, you should put it in huge fucking letters right at the start of the game, that "THIS HACK IS FOR EXPERT PLAYERS ONLY".
Black Telomeres

Gator


 





Since: 10-12-06

Last post: 6287 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 08:41 AM Link | Quote
But you can see he said the dungeons were easy in his opinion. It seems there is a general disconnect between what the makers of the hack believe is "hard" and what the general public thinks hard is. I'd say the challenge would be ok if they had kept the normal amount of heart drops from pots, enemies, etc. Instead, you have entire dungeons where you have to abuse save states to stay at full health since you'll never be able to regain any lost health.
Kailieann



 





Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6282 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 08:45 AM Link | Quote
He didn't say the dungeons were easy. He said they were easy if you know "all the tiny exploits you can do".

Which, most people don't, and don't care enough to learn -- as was my entire point
Black Telomeres

Gator


 





Since: 10-12-06

Last post: 6287 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 08:47 AM Link | Quote
I was referring to Orochimaru's post where he describes different dungeons as easy. I dont see how the exploits would help you against the guards anyway.

(edited by Black Telomeres on 01-01-07 02:53 AM)
asdf

Link's Awakening
‭‮‭‮ಠ_ಠ








Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6284 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 08:48 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Alastor
I rescued Zelda and went to the entrance, then left, shoving the sword thing to the right to make it into the sewer... After I got into a dark area with lots of holes, I could not progress further and died. Saved and continued. I tried to leave the guard tower to see if there was something else to do, but collision detection just sorta explodes as soon as I go through the south door... But all doors at the end of the sewer are locked.

Good job.

Spoiler:
There should be a switch you can step on that will open a door. The tile it is on looks slightly different from the other tiles.
Kailieann



 





Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6282 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:06 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Black Telomeres
I was referring to Orochimaru's post where he describes different dungeons as easy. I dont see how the exploits would help you against the guards anyway.

Originally posted by Orochimaru
The infiltration part of the intro is only hard if you don't know all the tiny exploits you can do, like walking between the walls and spikes for example.

Funny how you didn't even read the post you were referencing
Alastor
Fearless Moderator Hero








Since: 11-17-05
From: An apartment by DigiPen, Redmond, Washington

Last post: 6282 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:06 AM Link | Quote
Oh no, I assumed there was a solution that I hadn't thought of... I was merely noting that what appeared to be an alternative path has horribly glitched.
Black Telomeres

Gator


 





Since: 10-12-06

Last post: 6287 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:14 AM Link | Quote
Oh I read it. You did not though =/

If I would have to judge the overall difficulty of the hack it would be:

(Intro) medium

(1st) very easy

(2nd) easy

(3rd) easy
Orochimaru









Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6299 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:36 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Kailieann
And therein lies your critical error. The gameplay of any hack should not revolve around "all the tiny exploits you can do", because out of all the people who might want to play your hack, less than 10% are going to know about those exploits.

And if you're going to disregard that and release a hack in which players will have little or no chance of surviving without being an expert player, you should put it in huge fucking letters right at the start of the game, that "THIS HACK IS FOR EXPERT PLAYERS ONLY".

Originally just about a month before release, it was possible to get a bottle/net/fairy straight in the beginning. I don't know why Euclid removed this, but on my part it was much easier with those. Therefore, I take your comments in consideration.

I personally agree that the guardhouse is TOO MUCH, but those were Euclid's task, not mine. While we shared some ideas, we mostly worked on our parts alone. I did the overworlds/graphics/menus while he did the dungeons/monologue/asm/massive hex fixes. It's been fully playtested several times aswell. Don't get me wrong, we obviously didn't fixed anything because we keep getting complaints.

While hacking this game is hard, it is even more hard to fix all the bugs. Hyrule Magic keeps on screwing things/breaking stuff each time you even save with it.

Hopefully, we could do anything to improve the situation. The core of the hack is done and I'm open to suggestions as what we could fix/update. We already brainstormed on the event problems such as having to restart in the beginning if you die in the guardhouse.. We would be happy to provide an easy solution to this aswell (such as restarting in the guardhouse for exemple), but changing events is as hard as it can gets.

The game let's you restart where you died only after you get your sword unfortunately. An easy solution would be to have the sword in one of the beginning caves instead.

Like I said, after the guardhouse it gets very easy, I'm sure it is, even for un-experienced players. There are alot of heart pieces scattered everywhere. You should find plenty of hearts around. As for the guardhouse, you can kill the stupid guards with pots to get the hearts you need (as this been stated by others before).

Monologue. While there's mispelling errors, I guess that's normal coming from two foreign hackers. Neither of us speaks english as a first language. I'm sure someone as great as Alastor would have done a great job handling the monologue errors. Time constraints I guess. Reason enough there isn't any Zelda 3 hacks out there is that it takes a long time to do anything worthy.

beneficii, thanks for your constructive criticism and about your question:
Originally posted by beneficii
I notice in the Guardhouse and the 1st dungeon that there are a lot of areas that require the hammer to get into, but I'm not sure where the hammer is. Would I be coming back to those dungeons later in the game to pick up stuff?

Spoiler:
The hammer is in the 1st dungeon, B1 inside the big chest. You can easily find both big keys around there aswell.


(edited by Orochimaru on 01-01-07 03:37 AM)
(edited by Orochimaru on 01-01-07 03:39 AM)
HyperHacker

Star Mario
Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_<
Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Canada, w00t!
My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn.
STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^(

Last post: 6283 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:44 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Kailieann
He didn't say the dungeons were easy. He said they were easy if you know "all the tiny exploits you can do".

Which, most people don't, and don't care enough to learn -- as was my entire point

Seems to be a perfect example of someone forgetting the golden rule of level design:

Levels you create will always be easier to you than to everyone else, because you have that much extra experience and know all the tricks and shortcuts.

As well as perhaps the silver rule: Glitch exploitation is bad.
Black Telomeres

Gator


 





Since: 10-12-06

Last post: 6287 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 09:59 AM Link | Quote
The lost woods is to the east. I heard the combination is not anywhere in this game!

Hahaha, oh wow.
Orochimaru









Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6299 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 10:11 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Alice
Originally posted by Kailieann
He didn't say the dungeons were easy. He said they were easy if you know "all the tiny exploits you can do".

Which, most people don't, and don't care enough to learn -- as was my entire point

Seems to be a perfect example of someone forgetting the golden rule of level design:

Levels you create will always be easier to you than to everyone else, because you have that much extra experience and know all the tricks and shortcuts.

As well as perhaps the silver rule: Glitch exploitation is bad.
I didn't designed the dungeons, Euclid did. I played them thoroughly and commented on them from my personal experience. Therefore that rule doesn't apply to me. The exploits I herein refer are those I discovered on my own (such as walking between walls/spikes)... Anyone can find there own ways to get past all the traps around.

Originally posted by Black Telomeres
The lost woods is to the east. I heard the combination is not anywhere in this game!

Hahaha, oh wow.
Actually it is in the game. Someone tells you where it is, but much later in the game

Spoiler:
You can find the person who tells you the combination in the snowland. He's located in the same area where you can find your house.
Alastor
Fearless Moderator Hero








Since: 11-17-05
From: An apartment by DigiPen, Redmond, Washington

Last post: 6282 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 10:16 AM Link | Quote
Query: Can you get the hammer immediately after returning Zelda to the church? Also, can you get back into the sewers/church passage? I neglected to grab the chest with the big key in it.

(edited by Alastor on 01-01-07 04:28 AM)
beneficii

Broom Hatter


 





Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6286 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 10:20 AM Link | Quote
Orochimaru,

Well, I got the Big Chest Key from the sewers, but is there another Big Chest Key in the Guardhouse itself? With the Big Chest Key from the sewers (called Guardhouse Passage/Churge Passage), I still can't open up the Big Chest in the Guardhouse itself. The readme that you published implies that when you take Zelda out of the Guardhouse and into the sewers, you still are unable to open the Big Chest in the Guardhouse itself. Perhaps you can clarify?
Orochimaru









Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6299 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 10:37 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Alastor
Query: Can you get the hammer immediately after returning Zelda to the church? Also, can you get back into the sewers/church passage? I neglected to grab the chest with the big key in it.
Guess I could give you a small walkthrough to it.
Spoiler:
Once you rescued Zelda, you can get the hammer in the first dungeon: Nayru's Bay. You need to get the Zora Scale from King Zora himself in a large waterway cave well hidden in the Oasis. Then go speak to Sahasrala at the Hyrule docks. Then to get to the first dungeon you gotta head to Saria's Lake and walk through the hidden path behind the north east most waterfalls. You'll find the first dungeon in the cave up the stairs. From there you can find the hammer in the bottom "flooded" floor.

Spoiler:
Yes, you can return to the guardhouse anytime if you missed on the previously not opened big chests. As for the sewer chest, it contains the blue boomerang, an important item which you shouldn't miss on


Originally posted by beneficii
Orochimaru,

Well, I got the Big Chest Key from the sewers, but is there another Big Chest Key in the Guardhouse itself? With the Big Chest Key from the sewers (called Guardhouse Passage/Churge Passage), I still can't open up the Big Chest in the Guardhouse itself. The readme that you published implies that when you take Zelda out of the Guardhouse and into the sewers, you still are unable to open the Big Chest in the Guardhouse itself. Perhaps you can clarify?

Spoiler:
Once you get the hammer from the first dungeon, head back to the guardhouse. Inside head left until you see pegs, hit them and in the other room it leads to a small chest. Inside lies the big chest key for the locked big chest in the eastern rooms.


(edited by Orochimaru on 01-01-07 04:41 AM)
Reshaper256

190


 





Since: 11-17-05
From: United States

Last post: 6325 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 11:15 AM Link | Quote
I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

I'm currently not out of the guard house, and I've died several times just after getting to the big key, only to lose all my progress, at which point I left the game and didn't come back for a while. You shouldn't be taken all the way back to the beginning of the game if you die in the guard house, and in my opinion that needs to be fixed - I resorted to sticking a savestate at the entrance to the dungeon, at which point I started enjoying things more. All in all I've had a lot of fun struggling not to die with so few hearts in the first level, and cursing at those super fast soldiers.

I'm going to enjoy the ridiculous difficulty in this hack.

But that's me, someone who knows this game inside and out, and being a Zelda 3 hacker probably better than I should. For me this is fun, but I'll never be able to share this with my girlfriend, or even my little brother (who loves Zelda) with this level of difficulty at the beginning of the game. It'd be torture for them, which is kinda disappointing to me. I'm not complaining though, I knew this would be for "experts" as soon as I read Euclid's readme.

The new GFX are splendid, by the way, I loved the Harvest Moon bushes.

(edited by Reshaper256 on 01-01-07 05:26 AM)
(edited by Reshaper256 on 01-01-07 05:32 AM)
Xenesis

Blipper








Since: 11-19-05
From: Australia

Last post: 6283 days
Last view: 6282 days
Posted on 01-01-07 11:23 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Orochimaru
The infiltration part of the intro is only hard if you don't know all the tiny exploits you can do, like walking between the walls and spikes for example.


Uh, wow.

If I had to abuse small glitches to progress, then I'd assume I wasn't doing it right in the first place.

'Using Glitches' just raises a red flag in my head that says 'There should be a legit way to do this, instead of using this glitch, so It's probably going to go mental down the line.'
Euclid



 





Since: 11-17-05
From: Australia
hmm...

Last post: 6289 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 12:06 PM Link | Quote
If the guardhouse is posing so many problems for that many players, i'll just play through it to the church and distribute the save state/save ram, it saves players judging the hack on a dungeon which is not suppose to be "stupidly hard".

If you skip the boomerang in the sewers, you'll have to wait for the red in the dark world, you won't miss much though.

The lost woods combination is in other zelda games.

The bottle was removed in the intro because if you put him in 2 places he'll give you the bottle again.

Yes the hack can be improved by a lot, personally I would just want to get this hack finished, I set my own deadline to end of 2006, and I stick to it.
DurfarC

Micro-Goomba


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Norway

Last post: 6319 days
Last view: 6290 days
Posted on 01-01-07 12:54 PM Link | Quote
Finally! I quitted ROM hacking 16 months ago, but I've always been waiting for a Zelda 3 hack to be released. Good job.
Orochimaru









Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6299 days
Last view: 6283 days
Posted on 01-01-07 12:59 PM Link | Quote
I've made a speedrun of the whole introduction sequence for those interested. It's a pretty sloppy run, I did get hit but I haven't used any exploits/glitchs. Used no savestates whatsover. It works perfectly on ZSNES v1.36 Win (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/zsnes/zsneswv1.36.zip).

I saved Zelda, took the time to get the boomerang (althrough optional) and finished the guardhouse/church in about 00:30 minutes on the clock..

Make sure you *BACKUP YOUR SAVES BEFORE PLAYING THIS* because I save sometime after the intro to show the clock...

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