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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Holocaust Deniers Convention in Iran |
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Arwon Bazu                   Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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I'll quote John Ralston Saul here, on the essential difference:
The holocaust was a genocide carried out in a rational, planned manner by a society essentially run by the same principles as ours. It MUST remain absolutely taboo for that reason, because once you start to deny that it was a calmly and clinically and logically carried-out genocide of a group of people, by a society functionally identifiable with our own, you start to forget what modern planning and governance is truly capable of - the euphimistic creepery, the dispersal and thus avoidance of final responsibility, the defence of the indefensible by perfectly sane people. Once we start to forget these aspects, that the Holocaust was the darkest possible side of our rational, planned, post-God societies and think of it as "just another massacre" by man in his brutal state of nature, we start to go back down that evil slope. Most massacres are due to absence of effective government and functional administration and so forth... the Holocaust was caused by it. (edited by Arwon on 12-22-06 02:37 AM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES  Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Arwon summed up better than I could ever do. | |||
Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationWhat the hell am I talking about? I'm just taking what you say and responding to it; can you point out how I am misrepresenting you? Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationNow you're twisting what I'm saying - your personal attachment isn't irrelevant because it is a personal attachment, but because it is selective. That is, you can empathize with the Jewish perspective because your ancestors were victims of genocide, but you apparently do not empathize with other ethnic groups who have also been slaughtered. At least, according to what you've said. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| " but you apparently do not empathize with other ethnic groups who have also been slaughtered."
Seriously... |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| If you want an intra-Jewish example about why the Holocaust is worse, in order to forestall any accusations that it's considered different and sacrosanct because it was the Jews (and they, like, control the media)... how about the persecutions in the Stalinist USSR, or going further back, any number of other pogroms and bouts of ethnic cleansing across Eastern Europe and beyond. I mean, where is Spanish Jewry these days? (edited by Arwon on 12-22-06 02:50 AM) |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The argument that Holocaust denial is offensive, although I don't feel its ground to outlaw it, I can at least understand.
However the "it will incite violence" argument just bothers me. Fear of possible violence, or just fear in general, is the worst, although most often used, reason to infringe free speech. It's the type of argument the PRC uses to filter the word Tankman. Obviously, that's different. But who are you to draw the distinction? Who is anyone? If there was a clear cut, universally agreed upon, distinction between "right speech" and "wrong speech", there would be no need for freedom of speech. But there isn't, and trying to block out specifically unpopular opinions defeats the purpose. Its rarely the popular speech that need protecting. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationSeriously... Now, of course, everything within the brackets is purely my words, but it's what you're saying. Edit to respond to a post that came after I submitted this one: Originally posted by ArwonHey now, let's not open this can of worms. Nobody made any sort of comment like that, and I don't need to be labeled an anti-Semite in addition to being the gay-hater that I am. (edited by Silvershield on 12-22-06 02:56 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| It's because it's hatespeech, and closely associated with Neo-Nazis and their violent and anti-social behaviour. It doesn't so much incite violence as provide a way for violence to be more effective.
I'ma quote myself from the last Holocaust Denial thread: "The issue here is the absolutism of free speech. You claimed free speech is absolute in all cases. Clearly it isn't. Speech can cause harm, we've demonstrated cases in which speech can cause harm, ranging from holocaust deniers adding fuel to the neonazi fire, to trolling cartoons deliberately inciting people with a very different attitude to their prophet and to the printed images, to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. The right to free speech must be balanced against other often contradictory rights, just like each other. Free speech does not mean freedom to deliberately and intentionally incite hate and incite violence, or to cause unjustified public panic, because that violates other folks' rights. For example, in the case of Holocaust denial, it violates the right of people to feel safe from fucking Nazis. Now, different countries balance these two conflicting rights differently, but the point remains, free speech is not an absolute any more than any other right is." Many people feel that denying the holocaust is basically the same thing as saying "I believe group X should be violently opposed and, if we get the chance, removed from society". This is because there's a virtually 100% correlation between anti-Semetic hatred and holocaust denial. It's essentially a code for the incitement of hatred and therefore intended to impinge on the rights of the target group to live in peace and security, yatta yatta yatta. Now, what people who're against hate-speech laws need to ask themselves is whether they're against hate speech laws, or against considering holocaust denial as hate speech. They're two different arguments and we're kinda having both. (edited by Arwon on 12-22-06 02:57 AM) (edited by Arwon on 12-22-06 02:59 AM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Yes, Silvershield.
That is exactly what I'm saying. 100% absolutely. I mean, sure. You have to bend all of my words. And make vast accusations, but sure. I fucking hate everyone but Jews. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I would quote my reply to that from the last thread, but you can just go read it yourself if you care.
Although, having exactly the same debate twice, especially through quotes from the original just seems silly. Edit: (This was supposed to be a reply to Arwon) (edited by emcee on 12-22-06 02:58 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| SS, that wasn't an accusation against you, it was a joke. At any rate, it can be kind of the unspoken corrollary of "the holocaust is considered special because it was Jewish" is the recognition that Jews are now a strong and influential group in society compared to most other vitims of genocide. Jews are now insiders in western society... honorary white people, if you will. That can be spun as "the Jews control society" but it doesn't need to be. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonYelling "fire" in a crowded theater causes direct and tangible damage. Allowing people to deny the Holocaust "might" eventually cause the downfall of Western society by allowing the Holocaust to become trivialized in the popular memory, or it might just lead to whatever nitwit is spouting anti-semitic nonsense to be called an idiot by all his peers. Originally posted by ArwonWouldn't the denial of American slavery - you never see it, really, but its an appropriate hypothetical analogy - violate a person's right to feel safe from white supremacists? The KKK is notoriously violent, of course, and their cause would be furthered if they could convince the world that the historical event that the African-American community so often cites never actually happened, but you won't see America outlawing anti-slavery speech. My point is, neo-Nazis aren't the only violent anti-ethnic faction out there. Originally posted by ArwonI won't deny this for a second, and I will continue to say that Holocaust deniers are totally out of line, but I still feel like it's a case of choosing the most recognizable incident while ignoring so many other atrocities that have occurred throughout history. Originally posted by ArwonAre you implying that a person who subscribes to the latter is automatically anti-semitic? Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationHow am I bending your words? What I quoted was, indeed, a direct quote, and my own remarks in brackets are formed directly from the idea you were promoting. Edit: Originally posted by ArwonI understood it as a joke, and I apologize if you thought I took real offense to it. I'm just afraid of what that might be twisted into, because I've had problems here in the past where innocent remarks of mine have been used to paint me as an out-and-out bigot. And that was no fun. (edited by Silvershield on 12-22-06 03:14 AM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| No, it wasn't. You're pulling things out of nowheres ville. I said that the brutality of the Holocaust sets it apart from other genocides. Not that I was advocating vociferous hatred towards other non-jews or something sick like that. I was saying that the Holocaust, when it is denied, debases all of those that have been put through genocide.
The only thing that you're promoting is a worthless attack on me. "but you won't see America outlawing anti-slavery speech. " This doesn't happen because there is a large amount of people that seem to love being racists. "Are you implying that a person who subscribes to the latter is automatically anti-semitic? " As it should be. "I won't deny this for a second, and I will continue to say that Holocaust deniers are totally out of line, but I still feel like it's a case of choosing the most recognizable incident while ignoring so many other atrocities that have occurred throughout history. " No, it really isn't. The Holocaust is different, as shown by the JSR quote that Arwon used. Additionally, the failure to educate others about other genocidal compaigns is simply an educational and regional failure. You're never going to be taugh about what happened here or there until university or you research it yourself. Most kids only need one example to see how evil the Holocaust is. Although it'd be really nice to have the policies of Imperial Japan and its whacked ideas taught at high school levels. But it won't happen. There isn't enough time in high school. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationOriginally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by ArwonAre you implying that a person who subscribes to the latter is automatically anti-semitic? Common sense is on your side... to a degree. But skepticism about genocide should not be equated with anti-semitism or any other anti-[insert race here]-ism. But I suppose that the White Supremecists and Aryan Nationers must have gotten to me and SS, right?  There is likely massive quantities of evidence in favor of there having been a Jewish holocaust during WWII but how many of us in the North American continent are going to have access to such things. Asking the question "How do we know this happened for sure?" is not a crime, and yet your have this ludicrous notion that it is. But like I said, common sense is on your side, so the people who would deny the Holocaust outright and in a public fashion are going to have an agenda for doing so. Holocaust denial in and of itself is not hate speech unless there are obvious factors. For example, if they are involved with Neo-Nazi movements, the proponents of said view are guilty of hate speech. Does that seem agreeable to you?(edited by MathOnNapkins on 12-22-06 03:47 AM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationZiff, never once did I say anything that can even resemble "you are advocating vociferous hatred towards other non-jews." All I did was follow out these two points: 1. Ziff advocates maintaining anti-Holocaust denial laws. That is, denying the Holocaust should be illegal, but denying any other genocide or atrocity should not. 2. Ziff talked about how one reason for his opinion outlined in (1) is that he has ancestry who has been victimized in genocide. The conclusion I drew, based purely on these two points, is that you feel empathy for Holocaust victims - as illustrated in (1), where it is shown that you want to protect them - but, for whatever reason, that empathy does not extend to victims of other genocides. I'm not calling you a bigot or anything silly like that, I'm just saying that your logic does not totally check out. If anything, you would be supportive of laws that disallow the denial of whatever specific genocide your ancestors were involved in (if that particular event is, indeed, the Holocaust, then I've been misreading you - but it doesn't really change my point), because you would have a closer empathy with them than you would with the Jews. Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI am never the aggressor. Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI don't see your point. Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI argue to maintain free speech as a pure ideal - or, at least as pure an ideal as it practically can be - and I am anti-semitic? That's not really fair. Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationAs a sort of Devil's advocate remark: doesn't promoting the Holocaust as the only event "worthy" of being excluded from free speech sort of trivialize all of the other atrocities the world has seen over the years? I mean, if I am a survivor of any other historical genocide, it's fine to deny the event that killed my family, yet a Jew (or any other Holocaust victim - it wasn't only Jews) is free from that sort of thing? Did his family and friends really die, and mine just sort of died? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| This is about as productive as putting my foot into a food processsor. SS, you have used this thread as a way to attack me and keep on spouting the same senseless argument.
You may never be the aggressor, but you can sure be a pre-emptive prick. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Ziff, I'm above this. Nothing I said was ever intended to insult or offend, and the only reason I even questioned your logic in the first place is not because I want to reveal your dastardly Jew-hating ways, but because you were justifying your argument according to a system of logic that I found to be slightly questionable. I didn't intend for any sort of animosity for arise, and you're being unnecessarily defensive and, to be frank, a bit childish.
I was enjoying the direction of this thread. When there's a relevant point made, I'd love to respond to it; otherwise, I'm leaving for now. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| What I said earlier was appallingly worded, let me rephrase:
Now, what people who're against Holocaust Denial Laws need to ask themselves is whether they're against hate speech laws, or against considering holocaust denial as hate speech. Two different arguments. |
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Young Guru Snifit  Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6285 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| As arwon has said, this is breaking into two different debates (and it's mostly focused on the is holocaust denial hatespeach). I'm going to comment on the first idea, should hatespeach be illegal? To put it simply, no. I'm very keen on the 1st ammendment and the rights that it allows the people of the US to freely and openly exp |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Unpopular ideas are the ideas that need to be protected.
Just because the majority thinks something was horrible and even if they're right doesn't mean they should go unquestioned. Another thing though, is that how does hate speech effect you? Do you really get offended? If you're hurt, why are you hurt, how badly are you hurt? Isn't just being offended a way to further your own point? Words don't hurt people, even how you take those words don't hurt you. If you realize someone is stupid, then you know their opinion should have little or no impact on you. What did most people do when they heard this? They laughed. They laughed their asses off at the idea. There will always be the double sided thing about people persecuting homosexuals, women, etc... but usually those are current ideas that require popularity to far exceed the other side. (People are driven by hate though sometimes.) I also know of a genocide worse than the holocaust. At least you preserved your culture, you can't say the same thing about the Native Americans. |
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