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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Holocaust Deniers Convention in Iran |
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Ogama Dobe Rope                     Since: 11-15-06 From: The Darkness of my Soul Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I just found out last night on the Daily Show with John Stewart about this.It seems to me to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. You cann't deny that the Holocaust happened because it is written down in the history books it isn't something that no one has seen. There are people alive today who lived through it. So there is no way you can deny that it happened the way you might deny that you put gum in your sibling's hair. There are documentaries on the Holocaust. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Israel = Iran?
"You cann't deny that the Holocaust happened because it is written down in the history books it isn't something that no one has seen. There are people alive today who lived through it. So there is no way you can deny that it happened the way you might deny that you put gum in your sibling's hair. There are documentaries on the Holocaust." Although, the logic is not there...Denying the Holocaust is a travesty, I agree. |
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Metal Man88 Gold axe It appears we have been transported to a time in which everything is on fire! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| They can go ahead and deny it, but when the Nazis (Or Nazi-analogue) come for them, there won't be anyone to sympathize for them, then. It's been pretty much shown the Nazis went after progressively larger groups of people--a similar threat in the future would likely prove them wrong. It is good, however, no such threat exists--but unfortunately jerks like these people apparently can't realize how much they tempt fate.
Ah well. Let them have an ignorance party, they'll get theirs in the end. |
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Cynthia Uh-huh. Since: 11-17-05 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Given all the proof we have of the Holocaust existing, I'd like to see the smoking gun that the deniers have.
It's sad, but what can you do? Just point and laugh I suppose. |
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SamuraiX Broom Hatter Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I don't understand, are deniers trying to say there was no massive killing of people, or that there was no holocaust, as to deny that the word holocaust is a fitting word to describe such killing? | |||
Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| The Holocaust denial debate is interesting because, in mainstream terms, it's not about whether the Holocaust happened, but whether people should be able to say it didn't. It's a debate about the debate. I mean everyone knows it happened, but should Holocaust denial be a criminal offense as it is in some places (David Irving, British historian, is in an Austrian jail as I write)? Are some things too extreme, offensive and wrong to even be discussed and put up for debate? | |||
Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I am continually confused by the notion that Holocaust denial is a jailable offense in many countries that are otherwise advanced and "liberated" - that is, countries that endorse the equivalent of American First Amendment rights will take severe action against a person who is essentially just speaking out. The only crime in such an action should be the crime of unabashed stupidity, not any punishable civil offense. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I'm usually extremely "GO FREE SPEECH" but Holocaust denial is a slippery slope. Once the Holocaust is openly debated to the point of being seen legitmately as doubtable (not like real facts and evidence matter to most people) then you've let the extreme-right and other anti-semetic groups win. Different peoples have to put up having their genocides glossed over and snowed to being debates. Trust me, it hurts when millions of your fellow blood are targetted for death and then that travesty is chalked up to being a god damned debate. | |||
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Two reasons. Firstly, it's hate speech, since the implied corollary of Holocaust denial is the ieda that it's a Jewish hoax to further their interests by generating sympathy. Generally countries with holocaust denial laws have hate speech laws more generally, In Canada or the UK, for example, you could probably prosecute holocaust deniers under more general hate-speech laws due to the less proscriptive nature of common law systems.
Second, it's a proxy law, useful for smacking really objectionable political groups in countries that are afraid of resurgent Nazism, especially those countries which participated in the Holocaust. When a particular behaviour, such as Holocaust Denial, so neatly correlates with extreme political groups, it's a useful tool to limit their behaviour and the effectiveness of their political organisation--since a legal political party is more effective than an illegal one, if you stick restrictions like this in as proxies, you can make life difficult for these groups without actually banning them.. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| Israel would definitely be the worst place to hold a Holocaust Deniers Convention.
Actually, the whole phrase "Holocaust Deniers Convention" sounds silly. Like there's a big show room where various hate groups set up booths. I'd say what I think about Holocaust denial but, I already have. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationNormally I would agree, but I feel like the Holocaust is such a hot-button issue, such a taboo that is virtually unequaled in the modern world, that formal laws are not necessary to preserve it as historical fact. Sure you'll have the nutjobs who will deny it, but I don't see that minute faction gaining any sort of foothold when the great majority of the population recognizes how off-limits that sort of discussion is. |
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SamuraiX Broom Hatter Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination If I might say, the denial of the Holocaust is not at all "legitimate," the opposite I could accept as true. In the United States at least, the norm is that the Holocaust was an awful, terrible thing that shouldn't have happened--although people wouldn't have learned anything if it had not happened, and the effect would not exist, therefore the occurance of a similar genocide if what is coined the Holocaust had not existed. If one asked someone about Nazis or Hitler, the average person would immediately say something around the lines of "bad" or "evil." I do not contest that this is not the case, but that this is what is the norm. But exempting that, I must pose the question: what in fact, is the purpose of denying the Holocaust? Many might answer, to justify the actions of anti-Semites and other racists, and to remove the norm established that genocide is bad, detestable, and wrong. But I wonder, if this is the case, and such peoples want to effect such a genocide, how would they do so? I'm not sure about any of you, but I'm pretty sure I've been subject to the norms "killing is wrong"? But no one seems to care about the occuring genocide in Darfur, it would seem. The tool that the masses use to propagate genocide is apathy, which has worked far better than the feeble efforts of these naysayers. In fact, I bet none of you even thought about Darfur when you read the words ""genocide" and "Holocaust."  |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Personally, I think making an opinion a crime is absurd, and is just as much a slippery slope to fascism as denying the holocaust. People who we consider to hold wrong beliefs should'nt be jailed, their belief should be shown to be conclusively wrong using facts and evidence. These are the sorts of laws which make me wonder if next the government will pass a law saying to disagree with them is treasonous and dangerous, and thus illegal, then cite this law as the legal precedent for being able to do it. Unless the population is ridiculously ignorant, some things are obvious ridiculous to debate. I dont think people would suddenly think that there is no such thing as the statue of liberty, just because a group of oddballs decide to deny it's existence anymore than people would suddenly disbelieve the holocaust just because a bunch of nazi-wannabe's want to claim it did'nt happen. There may even be another segment of the population who distrust the government so much that the very fact that the idea was made illegal would actually lend credence to it as a government cover-up. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by Plus Sign AbominationNormally I would agree, but I feel like the Holocaust is such a hot-button issue, such a taboo that is virtually unequaled in the modern world, that formal laws are not necessary to preserve it as historical fact. Sure you'll have the nutjobs who will deny it, but I don't see that minute faction gaining any sort of foothold when the great majority of the population recognizes how off-limits that sort of discussion is. I would say that when those nutjobs are enshrined by a nation's foreign policy bureau and are being legitimized by a major regional power, then yeah. I really do worry that such a taboo could be overturned. Human existence is inherently irrational and people will follow to what appeals to their most bestial and lowest points of existence. The Jews have formed an excellent historic scapegoat for the masses in Germany, England, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Greece, Italy, Croatia, Bulgaria, Belgium, Hungary, France, Poland and so on (I bet you didn't see what I just did there  ) and they're drifting back towards to being an excellent scapegoat again. The highly militarized Israel and the Zionist factions of Judaism are becoming targets that in the Middle East and abroad are making it okay to broadswipe Jews of all stripes. And what is even worse, is that there will probably be a bit of a trickle down effect due to this. This is realization by a major nation state that is legitimizing Holocaust denial. This is a leading power in its region. This is something that will reverberate even more across the Muslim world. Anything that allows that minute faction to begin to weasel its way into even thinking of challenging the perceived conceptions of how off-limits this discussion should be...I want it stopped. The reason why Holocaust denial is a bad thing is because if that number of people killed from sheer hatred will allow the ideology that led to this to become slightly more palatable.
As for Darfur, I bet that I did think about it. However, it is not necessarily applicable to this debate. Because I bet no one here ever thought of Holodomor or the Armenian Genocide. So, yeah. I'd rather if you just shut up  Because I bet that you've never had it debated whether the wholesale slaughter of your people was merely a policy decision or not. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The question is, why does the Holocaust merit special treatment, but no other event or phenomena does? Anti-semitic rhetoric is outlawed, but denying that Americans ever held slaves (anti-black) or that the Armenian genocide ever happened (anti-Eastern European) or that any of the countless other historically legitimate travesties actually happened is alright?
I'm hardly arguing that Holocaust denial is "ok," but where is the line drawn between what sort of speech is outlawed and what is allowed? I don't intend for that to be a "slippery slope" sort of thing - I don't think that laws against Holocaust denial will eventually lead to the destruction of free speech in general, or anything like that - but why is the Holocaust an exception? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Because it is that sort of singular "ultimate human low".
It was a completely industrialized wholesale slaughter of humans. It is so different than any other thing ever done to humans on such a scale. Honestly, if you can't see why the Holocaust is an exception, then you never will. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Other genocides aren't really that bad, though.
Edit to elaborate: All I'm saying is, while the means and methods of the Nazis may have been more efficient and inhuman than other such instances, the fact remains that genocide is genocide. Killing thousands or millions of people is a Bad Thing; why should only the most extreme example merit special treatment, while every other instance may not? (edited by Silvershield on 12-22-06 02:05 AM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Because it is the most visible, brutal, and vile.
I'm not insulting you here. But SS, you really have to understand. Once your people have been targetted for extermination...you tend to sympathize with other people who have gone through the experience. I honestly don't think you can really understand what it all means. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| ...I don't understand how any personal association of yours is relevant. Surely I sympathize for whatever adverse effect history has on your personal life, but how does that enter into the argument? So, a Jew is immune from speech that trivializes his ancestors' deaths, but an Armenian, for example, is not?
You say that, since "your people" have been victims, you are more attuned to that similar struggle in others; so, why do you only extend that empathy to the Jews, but not to any of the other racial or ethnic groups that have been targeted? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| What in the hell are you talking about?
You've twisted my words to a ridiculous degree. The fact of the matter is that the Holocaust is the worst of the bunch. Myself and some of my friends (like Armenians) all agree on this. The Holocaust is not something that should EVER be touched. But that isn't to say that I'm saying that people should go and stomp over the Armenian genocide. Or the killing fields of Polpot or anything like that. But yeah. Personal attachments are really relevant. You ever look at a picture of a dead man that was starved to death? You ever have to sit there and look and say "That man was probably related to me"? You ever have to sit down and think "What if my grandparents hadn't left that country when they did"? You ever have to sit down and completely question your existence, your identity, your heritage? |
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