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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity vs. Scientology |
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Alastor Fearless Moderator Hero                     Since: 11-17-05 From: An apartment by DigiPen, Redmond, Washington Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Opposing stem-cell research at least has some moral backing to it, as in the end, it does essentially equate harvesting the building blocks of humans. I completely disagree, but I can at the very least see the argument. Contrast this to the statement that psychiatrists are evil minions of Xenu, and the implication that non-scientology-approved hospitals are to be avoided if at all possible, which has no real basis in moral outside of what they themselves have tied to their own stories.
Most religions encourage donation and charity. Scientology demands you give them money, or you cannot advance in the religion. I do not want to hear anything about being "more efficient," because that big "mandatory" changes everything. |
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Young Guru Snifit  Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6286 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Some fun reading on L. Ron Hubard. Not sure if Scientology writings of his record are part of the doctrines of Scientology, but if they are they are pretty damning for their credibility seeing as they have him awarded medals that don't exist for service he didn't do with education he doesn't have.
I'm not saying that this necessarily disproves scientology, but looking at the character and the state of mind of the man who authored the texts behind scientology there seems to be some major problems. From what I can take from it (and I'm no psychologist) he seems to be a certified lunatic. Torture tests on his child, blatant disrespect and reclesness during his posts in the navy, claiming to having created cures for arthritis while still collecting disability money for the condition. It just seems a little out there and nuts. And on a quite satirical and probably politically incorrect tangent... "In December 1953, Hubbard declared Scientology a religion and the first Church of Scientology was founded in Camden, New Jersey." Providing proof that scientology is wrong, it was founded in New Jersey, and Camden of all places. (Sorry all you jersey people, but come on, it's always fun, and my dad grew up in camden and even he trashes it). |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Young GuruWell, Camden puts the "Dirty" in Dirty Jerz. So, I'll be the first to admit that much of this fine state is hardly...pristine. But semi-urban North Jersey is nice  . |
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Crayola Double stone axe  Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| I’m just looking at this whole situation from a logical standpoint, there is money to be made in both religions, to me they are both scams but I will not put biased opinions in this post (self-contradictory statement but I think you get the point).
Age should not be a factor in determining the legitimacy of a religion. Most of you probably did not need to be told this but it has come up before on another site. How is L. Ron Hubbard any more substantiated that biblical prophets? Angels=Aliens They both are “seen” by people who swear to their existence what makes both or even one of these true? It all lies in faith and saying that a Scientologist is stupid is hypocritical, You see “Christians” sporting I love Jesus t-shirts they buy in to the same exact kind of scams Scientologists do, Christians buying holy water, paying into mass pyramid schemes, you see evangelical preachers “healing” people with false hope instead of a medical degree. I’m just trying to eradicate hypocrisy here, what is so different between Scientology and Christianity that makes it politically correct to flame Scientologists? And just in case it needs to be restated, I am not trying to make this into a flame, I want to hear honest opinions on the subject I do not care if you agree with me or not. =) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| One demands you buy stuff, in the other it's completely optional. | |||
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| Scientology does not force you to buy anything, neither does Christianity. Both the religions have money making schemes attributed to them. Both have been know to use mind control methodology (if this statement was too biased just ignore it).
The main difference is that Christians do not have to pay for their religion? Why is there such an abundant amount of money controlled by religious figures, Listen maybe I am over simplifying things here but they both scare you into giving money to them yes or no? They both ask for money, no hand is forced into anything. At my old church, they would collect money at the beginning of the day and tell you that you are destined for hell unless you seek salvation through Jesus Christ the only lord and savior and that I need to be baptized and come to church every Sunday. When you come to church you are expected to give money, when you go to a scientologist meeting you are expected to give money, I see people being scared into giving money on both sides. You can not tell me that if you did pass up giving money the whole congregation would not stare you down and think lower you, it is a peer pressure type of thing. I see no flaw with studying the religious texts at home and donating what would be church money to the starving. But this is not what either religion actively practices. Or is there a flaw in this thought process? I am really trying to remain unbaised as posible. (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 05:59 PM) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Only at one church was that a problem, every other church I've been to if you didn't donate well, no one cared.
At one church they only passed the thing around once a month and it was always so the youth groups could go on trips. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| That is derailing my point which is:
Neither religion forces you to give money. They both make requests for money. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Crayola. Obviously you know nothing about scientology if you say it doesn't force you to buy anything.
You have to buy fucking courses to advance in the religion. God, I hate apologists. |
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Young Guru Snifit Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6286 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Yeah, in Christianity donation of money is not a necessity for salvation. Now some would infer from the teachings of Jesus that if you don't give all your possesions up to charity you will not have salvation, and that is how some interpret the faith, but it is not in the doctrine of Christianity that donation is required for salavation. On the other hand, with Scientology, if you do not give enough money you will not get salvation. Without purchases of specific books and courses and machines you cannot be saved thus putting the giving of money as a necessity for advancement in the faith. Even this is not why I discredit Scientology though.
The man who wrote the books used in Scientology is to put it lightly, a complete and utter loon. He appeared to have no restraint or inteligence in his duty in the navy. Also, his actions during the sixties and seventies were far from honorable, and he was later indicted for using Scientology as his personal bank account. Anyways, the character of Jesus is far more righteous and loving. Basically Jesus was recorded to be a great man who did wonderful acts of love, whereas L. Ron Hubbard is quite different. (edited by Young Guru on 12-11-06 06:58 PM) |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| "You have to buy"
Both religious texts can be read at home. You do not have to give money. Where in the Scientologist bible does it say you have to give money to others? The literature of the Scientologists may be overpriced this does not make their words untrue, I could charge 1000$ for a bible that does not falsify Christianity. People gaining money off others beliefs does not negate the plausiblity of those beliefs. And apologetic no you are the one taking defense with your harsh tone I am defenseless (I have nothing to protect in this debate) I am trying not to offend its called common courtesy. And i might be offest here but wasnt jesus thought of as crazy / a scam artist during his time? (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 07:07 PM) (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 07:08 PM) (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 07:11 PM) (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 07:14 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Well, if you had nothing to protect then why would you continue to spew out false facts?
But what did I mention about buying Dianetics or any of the other books of scientology? Oh, holy fucking shit. I didn't! I was talking about the "auditing" sessions that you NEED to buy to be a Scientologist. The courses and classes that you NEED to pay for to eventually be cleansed of the thetons. But, to offset you little "Jesus was a scam artist" line I would like to put forward that he was seen as a radical, rather than a scam artist. Remember what happened to the lenders in the temple? Yup. But one thing. Jesus wasn't arrested riding around on a yacht with a bunch of kids. |
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Young Guru Snifit Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6286 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| No, people gainig money does not negate the plausibility, but it appears that Hubbard founded Scientology just so he could make money off of it.
Your statement that Jesus was considered crazy could very possibly be true, but he wasn't considered crazy because what he did was detrimental to others, it was because he preached such a radical form of self-giving that people might have thought him to be nuts. Hubbard is more crazy in the sense that he shelled a island off the west coast of North America under the assumption that it was uninhabited and belonged to the USA where in actually it was inhabited and property of Mexico. "Scientology's disconnection policy, in which members are encouraged to cut off all contact with friends or family members critical of the Church."~This seems very detrimental to a religion. Basically it's saying, we can't defend ourselves against our detractors so we'll just shut ourselves off from them. Most religions encourage their members to go out and discuss their faith with others (usually in the hope that their accounts of their own faith will bring converts to that faith). "The Church indoctrinates its members, providing very little initial knowledge of the inner secrets of the organization. In order to reach this knowledge parishioners are required to advance forward in rank through study and payments to the Church, the incentive of which is the stepped acquisition of promised powerful secrets and gaining of supernatural abilities." "Numerous differing, and sometimes conflicting, accounts of L. Ron Hubbard's life, in particular accounts of Hubbard discussing his intent to start a religion for profit, and of his service in the military." All quotes from Wiki (edited by Young Guru on 12-11-06 08:13 PM) |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| L. Ron Hubbard for all you know was a prophet and maybe he truly wanted the removal of thetans to be free. You are focusing on the wrong aspect of the religion; you are looking not at the text but the people who surround the text. Or is it not the words of the book of the religion that make the said religion? The Catholics forced people to pay taxes or were else ostracized from the church meaning they could not wed. They were in a way forced to go to church to be saved according to their religion, they believed what they believed and were forced to pay to be fully religious. I think with the ridicule of the Catholic Church aside this sums it up.
And I know L. Ron Hubbard was nuts and a liar, this however does not make Jesus (if he existed) any different from L.Ron. As for Scientology's disconnection policy-- Christianity has almost the same thing which says we must not listen to the disbelievers (paraphrasing). Both of these instances of the religions in question are attempts to keep from losing members. |
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Alastor Fearless Moderator Hero Since: 11-17-05 From: An apartment by DigiPen, Redmond, Washington Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Crayola
No, you're wrong. The end. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Crayola No it doesn't. Also, then why are you so vociferously defending scientology and claiming we focus on the wrong parts? Apologist. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| Do I really need to cite this? It is known that the bible rejects any truth besides its own as evil and should be disregarded I will look up some versus if that will truly please you but you are here to provoke me aren’t you?
I am playing devils advocate, damn wasn’t that obvious from the start? I have to give an insider view on the Scientologist’s point of view or else everyone would just agree with each other about this topic. I could do the same thing with Christianity on a Scientology forum. The answer of which parts are the right parts lies n you definition of religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. The act of getting rid of thetans is necessary to live a happy life in Scientology, so is getting rid of sin in Christianity. What is your point? The fact that they have to pay for their beliefs do not make the religion less or more verifiable than the christian religion it just shows how people exploit faith. I find the two religions equally ridiculous but am trying to uncover the Christian mentality towards what they see as flawed belief, this is how I am similar to Christians and I wish to explore this notion, you however are merely making a fool of yourself I was trying to be polite in order to divert a flame which will just creates a waste of board room, my/others time,and leads to threads getting closed. Perhaps everything I have said was wrong but perhaps not, I’m not fighting to be right or wrong. (edited by Crayola on 12-11-06 09:26 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I don't think I'm the one making a fool of myself here.
Any Bible verses that you post, I will refute them. Because knowledge in Christianity is a transitory agent that flows from God. Therefore all knowledge is inherently good and must be regarded for the purpose of learning - why do you think the European world was able to crawl out of the Dark Ages? Because Christianity, particularly the pre-1000 AD Celtic variant teaches that learning is good. You're confusing things with Protestant fundamentalism and extreme charistmaticism. The doctrine of the Catholic Church comes from a long line of scholars like Pope Sylvestor the Second that studied with Jews and Muslims. It has men like Gregory the Great that investigated pagan beliefs and rather than wholesale dismissing them as unimportant incorporated them into the Christian world view. Also, the definition you're giving is inherently fatalist and negates various Christian thinkers like Soren Kikkergard. Various forms of Christian existentialism would refute that a supernatural power controls human destiny. Such predistinary ideas are more found in Calvinistic points of view. Another point, how do you explain away Operation Snow White? How do you explain away the constant law suits against detractors of the Church of Scientology? You're not playing the devil's advocate. You're just doing a piss poor job of prosletyzing. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| What am I trying to change people opinions on? I am an atheist I KNOW the futility in trying to convert someone to another religion I do not care about converting others let them live in the world they want I am only trying to reason what makes them so different that it is commonplace amongst Christians (and others or religion) to scrutinize Scientology, and you throwing words around and slipping off topic does not make you smart so what are you? | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I've stayed dead on topic. You've chosen to attack me on firvulous grounds.
You're just using this as a platform so that you can show us how ignorant you are of both faiths. You don't address a single issue that anyone else raises except your own little narrow-band of non-knowledge. And you know what? We have a right to scrutinize Scientology. Just like you have a right to scrutinize Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Islam, Confucianism, Taoism, Shintoism, Zorastrianism and Yadism. The only thing is that in order to do so without looking like a drooling moron you have to use tact and fact. So far you've done nothing of the sort and proven yourself as bare as a mandrill's ass. |
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