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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - Officer's Club - Mysogyny |
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Kasumi-Astra Flurry                 Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I have a very complex history with mysogyny- I hate it, I hate all forms of irrational hate. However- I know full damned well that there is a very strong, inate fear behind mysogyny- why?
I'm taking Taryn up on her offer for discussing this in this thread, and I believe I have a unique viewpoint to offer- I think I can speak from both sides of the arguement. Back when I was in highschool, I'd been going out with Chad for about three years. Me and my friends had been studying for our final exams- considered absolutely critical for the rest of our lives. At the time, I was still going to school as a guy- I had been dealing with gender identity problems since I was 13 but I hadn't even talked to a doctor about it at that point. In my peer group there was me, two other guys and probably five other girls including Chad. At the time (and probably still now), the biggest story in the news at the time of exams is that boys are failing much more than girls- that girls are much more better at learning, passing, working and work harder than boys. I was terrified of failing. I was also terrified of failing when the rest of my peer group - mostly girls - would go on successfully. I was also terrified of failing to see Chad pass and go on to university - probably most of all. We had most of our classes together, and she also studied further maths, as she was in the top set, the best maths students in our year. This would preoccupy me for my entire school life- to the point where I would just collapse and fail to complete mock exams properly because she'd ansered a question I could not. My own feelings completely crippled me. Of course, we had many arguements as a result of this. When we had arguements, our friends would often become involved- and of course, I did not easily manage to find the favour of the girls. I was against my own friends in this situation and my own love- but made considerably worse because I knew that I was in this situation because I was something I was not. In my mind I knew I wasn't male, I had no reason to be afraid, I shouldn't have to study for my exams while I was probably mentally ill. At the same time, I think many young men and women don't understand what causes it, and often make mistakes when these feelings do come up. I think mysogyny is bred from an inate fear in all of us- fear of being socially outcast or socially hadicapped. I admit mine was a nasty mix of my own problems, growing pains and my will to work with Chad and a large group of girls, but I can say I have felt probably the most poisonous level of mysogyny. I know it's real, I know it's more than irrational, even though the hatred is absurd. I still have nightmares of arguements with my friends back then, most prominently with Chad. Having fights, failing school, and Chad having that social power over me. I wake up and I just feel like crying, I have no other recurring dreams that do this to me. Fortunately these days, she's usually sleeping next to me and I can wake up and realise how silly these dreams are, and how far our lives have come since- and have a good hug and a sob. I'm also going to university now, and she's starting next year. I think we're all capable of mysogyny- one of the most evil of feelings, the most evil of hatred. I think many young men are growing up not knowing what to do when they feel these feelings, and desperately need help in dealing with them. In hindsight, I needed help but I honestly felt that my own problems were insignificant and I couldn't complain. I know now that I should've, and mine and Chad's life could've turned out better for it. If anybody feels the same way, please talk to somebody about it. If you don't grow above it, they will completely control you for the rest of your life. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES   Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Before I butt into this thread...Am I allowed to disregard my own personal experiences and just talk about feminist theory?
Also, this thread really has a lot of undertones of tran and queer issues that probably should be talked about in a respectful manner. This just in: Ziff ---> gay rights activist and pro-feminist :O |
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Kasumi-Astra Flurry Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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This thread is absolutely suitable to discuss your own experiences, or not if you choose to. My own experiences are kind of influenced by gay / gender oriented problems, if anyone has any comments or questions I'd be happy to provide my knowledge 
I would be quite interested to hear how feminist theory can interpret my own situation, though. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Well, I've only sat in on a dozen or so women's studies lectures. It is somewhat discomforting for women to have men there. It is effectively a "safe space" as they are called and you know...it is something you can study by just knowing a feminist who knows her theory and reading the works of the most influential authors.
However, one of the causes of LGBTQ issues is due to the constantly self reinforcing patriarchy that has been established. Whether it is a construct that men have seeked to establish consciencously or not can be debated, but nonetheless it is a self-persisting institution that weighs down on men and women. For women it is apparent because it continues to enforce the inequality that they face in terms of economic (in Canada women make on average 70 cents to the male dollar) or in terms of political and career choices (politics and executive rooms will offten strive to elect male members). Basically, the patriarchy is a highly oppresive meta-organization that operates through masculine tendencies. However! It doesn't simply hold back women. It reinforces within men an innate fear of self-femininity and by proxy a fear of transgender, queer, and sexuality issues. Through the programming that most men face they are placed into a point where they merely accept what they see as wrong and as a challenge to their masculinity. I mean, you can see where I'm going. For the most part men don't WANT to reinforce these gender roles because it holds us back from our true potential and causes psychological harm. But, unfortunately, many men have become overly conditioned to accept the roles given to them. This causes them to have homophobic tendencies. Additionally, it causes a general insensitivity towards women's issues and femininity - it is the general insensitivity that can lead to misogyny. I know a few boards that I'd be willing to PM you about with regards to these issues. They like to be kept private  |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6282 days Last view: 6282 days |
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| I think the root of the problem is that men and women really are different. I'm not saying either is better, actually i think we compliment and need each other. But many people are scared shitless of anything which is different and they cant (or wont be bothered to) understand. Some men process this fear as mysogyny. It works both ways though, there are also women who dislike men or use men for various things without regard to their feelings. Both genders have people in them who are basically scum. Sometimes people will have bad experiences with the other gender that can cause them to become resentful of the whole gender. I can remember a time in my own life, way back when i was a teenager, when for the 1st and most powerful time i was in love with a girl. I put her on a pedastal, i considered her to be very special. But then i found out after many months of being with her, that she was cheating on me and disrespecting me behind my back. For a while after that i began to think that maybe all those jocks were right about females. Plus, looking around it became obvious that in general the jocks who treated women like shit invariably had very fine girlfriends, while the sensitive guys who would treat women like queens rarely had girlfriends at all. I think that in part this system goes on not just because the insensitive men want it to, but because enough women allow it to. If women treated men who are pigs like their touch was poisonous, and went for the sensitive guys instead, it would'nt be long before all those men would get tired of being alone watching the other guys who they generally make fun of get all the dates. They would have to reconsider their position or would not get a chance to reproduce themselves. | |||
Tarale    2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata  Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I apologise, but I'm not good at talking about the following / not good at putting it into words.
Back when I was first raped when I was a teenager, I was blamed for it. The female counsellor I spoke to was fairly good, but the rest of it was a bit... I was blamed for it. In particular the two male police officers that came over to my house one day were very nasty about things, suggesting that I had caused it all / that there was no problem / that I probably deserved it. Victim Blaming is apparently very common in rape cases. I'm just wondering if this is also a mysogynstic thing.... it seems that way to me. Course, I dunno if Victim Blaming is as frequent in the case of male rapes or not. But I do know that people often blame female victims for rape.  And it's not just men but women that blame them too 
Anyway, I guess that's my worst experience with things, and it has had a bit of an impact upon me. I wonder if I'd be so irritated by some things (like guys viewing women only as sex objects) if that hadn't happened to me or not. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Tarale: I know many men who think that almost inevitably a female rape victim brought it upon herself by some means. Hanging out with the wrong people, wearing slutty clothes, getting yourself into a situation you would have a hard time getting out of, trying to have sex and then trying to stop and thus you were 'raped'... I myself am pretty cynical of both sides. I know many girls are legitimately raped but you can't help but wonder if some are lying as a means to counter reputation issues, etc.
Back on the subject of misogyny.... in a world where there has been a long history of male supression of females, It's to be expected that there would be lingering anger and distrust now that many of those bonds have been broken in modern society. There are still plenty of people who think women are good for little more than house work and raising kids. But, just like racism, I think it will dwindle in the following century as it becomes more normalized. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I'm pretty offended by MathOnNapkins stuff
I guess the main reason is because even if you ARE seen as a "victim" there's still a stigma on you for being a "rape victim". And it's not some airy fairy stigma, people are really fucking nasty about it. I don't know many people who would like to be -- on a regular basis -- like to be called a lying whore, a slut, a bitch, lying trash, self-serving shit, whatever. If you were raped or not, admitting it means (at least around here) you will be labelled that shit for the rest of your life. You're seen as a no good lying slut who will sleep with anybody and change your story after. Doesn't matter what the fact is, for some reason people don't want to know that -- maybe they don't want to admit maybe it could happen to them too, and they're not invincible, I dunno -- but people don't like to believe what really happened.. So yes, since the age of 16, I've been a "slut" a "liar" and a "two-faced bitch" just because a (much) older man felt he could do what he wanted with me. And I don't think people should just dismiss that because I'm "saving my reputation" (as what for fuck's sake... a dork??)
Whatever, wish I'd never opened my mouth now. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100 In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I really hope you're not offended by my "stuff" b/c I'm just relaying what many other people think or at least what I've heard them say. Or are you offended because I'm cynical? Is there some reason I should automatically believe any woman when she says she's been raped?
No, I don't think this means they should have epithets like slut and cum dumpster thrown at them or be threatened into not pressing charges or all the other harassment than can follow, I just think that like any other investigation you have to get the facts. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The thing is, the "facts" are hard to talk about -- do you want me to go into the details of both rapes, or am I a fucking liar whore?
And even with my version of the story (in the form of a police statement) in front of them the policemen still called me a slut, told me that I was entirely to blame, and that there was no problem. Thing is, I never dressed or acted like a "slut" in my meaning of the words (does acting like you're terrified of everyone, barely talking to anyone, and wearing big, baggy clothes to hide your figure describe "slutty"??)
I don't think this is the kind of thing women would just lie about either. I've been labelled and blamed for the last decade because of it. I wouldn't wish the labelling or blame upon anybody any more than I'd wish the actual act. In fact, more women DON'T come forward about things because they DON'T WANT TO BE LABELLED AND BLAMED (and thus re-traumatised). So they just blame themselves, and hate themselves, and pretty much.. destroy themselves. |
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Kasumi-Astra Flurry Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I think the attitude you've encountered is very much part of the same institutionalised attiude that women commonly face from men nowadays. I take that attitude with a pinch of salt from my friends (partially because they treat me as they've always known me)- but sometimes it still alarms me that they can say such things with me around. It's silly, silly things that they say but I can't help feeling that they trivialise these issues so easily.
I think instutionalised stereotyping, generalising and "humor" allows attitudes such as the one you faced, Taryn, to continue. At the same time, there are some annoying examples of women out there that constantly re-enforce the stereotype making it much harder for good people like yourself to make a point- an extremely important point that you've exp I think if groups of friends talked about these issues together, it would help the right message get through to people. That whenever you laugh at, insult or heckle (for lack of a better word- imagine a builder shouting "orlright luv? Show us yer nickers") a woman, you should consider that you are damaging your mother, your sister, your girlfriend, your wife. What would they have to say about your attitude? I'd love to say that to some of the bastards I see around town these days- they should be ashamed. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Yes, I absolutely feel that these issues are trivialized, ignored or "made fun of". ABSOLUTELY. And I think it's trivialized, ignored or made fun of by men and women alike.
I know that some feminists seem to make it worse by getting all over-aggressive and stuff, but some of the stuff they say I don't agree with either. I just don't think it's fair that a friend of mine will be hurt by a woman and I will then have to listen to a rant about how ALL women are EVIL BITCHES. I don't think its fair I'm supposed to take "in good humor" comments from male friends about using women for sex because women aren't "good for anything else". I just don't think it's fair that I can't go to a party with friends, have a few drinks and have a reasonable expectation that I won't be raped. I don't think it's fair that I'm only to be labelled a liar or a dramatist if I am raped and DARE to speak of it. I I don't think it's fair that as a teenaged girl who had never even been kissed, I had my innocence taken away from me, only to be labelled a whore by the people who were supposed to help and protect me, and then have everyone else follow suit. Women are people too, and why don't we treat them that way? Why is it so acceptable to "make light of" these things, to blame them, or to not care? |
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Cirvania Cyball I guess this is as close as Xkeeper will get to spell it right. :< Since: 11-17-05 From: The Island of Puerto Rico. Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I could make a huge essay about how sexism is wrong and women should be respected, etc., but instead I shall summarize my point of view in this:
Treat women with the love and respect you would give your mother. After all, she's a woman too |
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MathOnNapkins 1100 In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Tarale You're making the huge mistake of thinking that I am in some way doubting you or opening you up for cross examination or something. Nothing of what I said was directed to you in particular, I was only speaking in general. I understand that you feel like I'm targeting you but you're putting words in my mouth. |
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Kasumi-Astra Flurry Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I can't possibly explain exactly how trivialising issues such as rape can benefit a social group- but I think it occurs in other situations as well. Mental illness, depression, suicide, self-harm, sexuality, gender identity, disability, rape, feminism - all are treated with contempt, hate and ignorance on a regular basis in society.
From what I've seen mental illness and suicide are mocked openly, and often dismissed completely by people. It's quite appalling. I fear it's a result of a pack mentality- disguard the weak in order that the strong might survive. (edited by Kasumi-Astra on 12-08-06 12:28 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by C:\irva\nte Or better yet. Treat a woman on absolutely equal footing without any special reverence. Like a person. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I haven't been around guys, or anyone, enough apparently. When I hear any rape/taken advantage of story, I always think. "Oh shit..."
It might just be because the entirety of Kansas was raised by women that we don't dismiss rape as a her fault thing and usually think oh shit.  |
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Riku Sledge Brother Unpredictable. Watch your backs. Or not. Whichever. I want Metal Gear Solid 4 so badly. Since: 11-17-05 From: Tompkinsville Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Cirvante That's funny, because I always want to be away from my family. |
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Koneko Plasma Whisp  Since: 11-17-05 From: Tartarus. We get faster internet than you. Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| People don't know how to handle people, things, or situations that are different from what they are familiar with. They divide things into dichotomies, then put things that are favorable to themselves on one side. Everything on the other side becomes an object of distrust, fear, anger, or hate, but mostly misunderstanding. People think they won't be able to understand things on the other side, so they don't make an effort.
This is deplorable. For example, a large portion of the population is comprised of people who are not rape victims. For a large portion of these people, rape victims are on the other side of their personal "people who are like me vs unknown, untrustworthy people" chart. See Tarale's posts for examples of results. For almost everyone, people of the other gender are on the other side of that chart. We get differing amounts of prejudice because some people are better at being people than others; That is, they're better at trying to understand the other point of view. However, this kind of person is rarely an outspoken activist of his or her position. People who suck at being people are loud, and so it appears that the number of people who are, say, misogynist, is larger than it really is. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men (hah!) to do nothing." It's quite irresponsible to assume that the problem will go away without you having to do anything. Mostly all you really have to do is teach your children that it's not okay to hate people based on any characteristic they have no control over. Still, I grew up (ages 3 to about 10) thinking this wasn't an issue at all, and thinking women were socially superior to men in the real world, so obviously this can go too far. Or maybe, if an entire generation believes that there's really no difference between men and women besides the obvious anatomical and hormonal ones, it could actually come true in society, not just science. I should stop before I start ripping off MLK by spouting about how I have a dream, but I do. Yeah, I'm done. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The problem with stereotypes is that the people who exemplify them are louder and more obnoxious than the people who don't.
But the people who are against certain stereotypes are also the people who are against, say, establishing an order of thought police who would deliver massive electric shocks directly to the hippocampus of anyone who even so much as shows a sign of a mysogynistic thought. That's not exactly "it goes both ways", because to be truthful it DOESN'T, but darn it all if it wouldn't be awesome to watch people suffer like that. I can't stand rape or mysogyny or anything like that. It's a long-running joke between me and my friends about girls and "the kitchen" and things like that because we all have a mutual respect for women, but even now I start hearing the jokes and I wonder if it's really all right and if we're actually contributing to the problem, moreso than the girls who aren't like Taryn. What if the rapists were raped? Who says it's bad to wish that upon anyone? What about the person who commits the atrocity? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but a sodomy for a rape makes for a heck of a lot less repeat offenders.  Because of course, everyone knows that it's impossible to rape a guy. |
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