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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Being Religious, Being Spiritual (sometimes Being Both) |
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Crashman Grizzo                    Since: 12-26-05 From: Maine Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6316 days |
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| This is a good one kiddies. The difference between Being Religious and Being Spiritual.
Religious: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity, of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances, scrupulously and conscientiously faithful. Spiritual: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit, of or relating to sacred matters, ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal, concerned with religious values, elated or joined in spirit, of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena. Now that was a mouthful. But having laid out the websters dictionary definition for each, we can move on safely. Being Religious has always seemed to me to be an empty past time. I would go to church and expect to feel this something, this glorious feeling that I had read so much about or seen so often on tv, only to come away bored and dissapointed. Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, bhuddist; been there, seen that, bought the church t-shirt. Didn't do anything for me. More than that, but the seeming RETAIL feel of it left me cold, the concept that if I toe the line, i get the prize, and that second place meant some form of eternal or near eternal punnishment or damnation. What the Hell (pardon the pun) kind of belief is that? And all the rules? Eat this or don't eat that? Do this on this day but that day is right out? Murder this person for her crime, pardon that person for his? Being Spiritual on the other hand has had its ups and downs as well. The emotions I feel when I walk through a woods and see all manner of creatures, plants, scents and sounds. Flying 35,000 feet in the air and breaking through cloud cover. Seeing my wife smile. Hearing a cat purr to me. All of these things fill me with that emotion I was SUPPOSED to feel in any one of a dozen churches that only left me empty. But then I see people performing the most horrendous acts, things no man or woman would ever do, save for their belief in a higher power that justifies their actions. Death and destruction and depravity on a scale never immagined. Horrors and Hells on Earth in High Definition 24 hours a day. I don't believe in an afterlife (I've seen to much science, but thats another discussion). I would love for there to be one (reincarnation is actually my prefered method), but that is only because I ENJOY my current life. Sure, someparts of my life could have gone better, but all in all I am very glad, every day to breath take my part of the communal oxygen. I try to make THIS life a heaven, and no one elses a Hell. So, I am more Spiritual than religious, but the spirit I believe in is the HUMAN SPIRIT, which can be either an Angel or a Demon....... |
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Crayola Double stone axe   Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| I think your fears are very relevant about the church and taking a spiritual standpoint rather the Christians one is definitely a better choice.
In taking Christianity you must shut down parts of your mind and cannot think indiscriminately, in taking spiritualism your mind is not limited in these ways. In taking Christianity you have strong feelings about your religion, I am sure with spiritualism if I said that spiritualism was a lie you wouldn’t want to bomb my house or some other act. Christianity scares you into their religion this is their tactic to round up adults, they create fantasy and fun stories to round up kids, and it’s quite funny to see both in contrast really. What you are saying about spiritualism and reincarnation I do not necessarily believe in, but I think this an excellent thing to go alongside agnosticism or a substitute for it. You seem very logical, last night I gave a long rant about religion on a chat site here are some of the things I heard: Atheism doesn’t exist. You haven’t seen Jesus but you know he exist because you have never seen Asia but you know it exists. (To which I replied I can go to Asia but I just can’t find Jesus) Why do you say these thing what Christian has tortured you in the past (To which I replied ignorance hurts) I will pray for your soul (I described to them in detail how prayer doesn’t work, which indeed it doesn’t) Its all in god’s plan (this was in response to why would he let someone suffer for the last week of their life instead of killing them suddenly o letting them live a week without pain then killing them , Logically if he lets this happen then he either enjoys this act or he doesn’t stop it from happening ) You stupid you should read more (I have read more of the bible than and Christian I know this is why I reject it and if they are talking about my reasoning skills I think they are very high) I feel this feeling in my heart (this was in response to what makes you believe this? I replied to this, what you are feeling is what psychologist calls mass hysteria.) Close your eyes and allow Jesus into your heart (close my eyes why, is there something different that happens when I close my eyes? Something special that doesn’t happen with them open? I guess sense depravation is necessary to be Christian) ……………..(this is what happens silence, after you look up the versus in the KJV bible yea the one they always praise. This is what happens when you pick certain versus out and read them to them.) To put it simply to believe irrationally things is stupid but I really don’t care until your religion affects my day to day life. Spiritualism has nothing but positive things to offer to society, doesn’t mean I believe in it but what is does mean is that I can see no deep horrid flaws in your thinking like I see in religion, so kudos to that. http://blog.myspace.com/kevin_ray_smith Check Out my blog for information on more stuff like this. |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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I'm not here to start an argument (even though, knowing what usually happens, this will almost certainly become one), but I can't stand by without at least making some remarks.
Originally posted by CrayolaI am a Christian both in a spiritual and a religious sense, but I haven't "shut down parts of my mind." I think critically, I analyze thoughtfully, I behave independently, but within the morality defined by the Church. Not because I fear the Church or I've been brainwashed or I'm a mindless sheep, but because I believe it's The Right Thing To Do. You sound silly and ignorant when you say that Christians "round up" followers through trickery and deceit; certainly those might play some small role, at least in certain sects, but those methods are hardly the overwhelming theme. Originally posted by CrayolaSure you can find Jesus, you just need to think a bit more abstractly and a bit less concretely. Come on, give it a try, it won't turn you into a stupid brainwashed redneck religious nut. I promise. Originally posted by CrayolaConvince me. Originally posted by CrayolaDiscounting the notion that God enjoys watching a person suffer, we are left simply with the idea that He allows it to happen...why is that not a possibility in your mind? Originally posted by CrayolaWow, way to make an ignorant, insulting remark generalizing many billions of people at once. Originally posted by CrayolaAgain, stray from concrete thought, if only for a moment, and try to understand that "close your eyes" doesn't necessarily mean that you need to relax your eyelids and let them fall in front of those two orbs in your face. Take it in an abstract sense. Originally posted by CrayolaA great deal of the Bible is contradictory, nonsensical, or just plain irrelevant to a modern audience. What's your point? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| Ummm, yeah, to add to SS...accepting a religion doesn't mean anything. In terms of critical thinking.
I mean some of the most brilliant men and most important discoveries were made by those what you calls its...Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| And some of the most important, respected, and just plain intelligent people in the world today are religious, spiritual, or both. It's not as if every person with any sort of education automatically sees their error of religion and suddenly rejects it. Not hardly. To be religious does not make you stupid and, conversely, to be a "free thinker" does not make you intelligent. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| To be a free thinker doesn't mean you're not religious. Some of the most radical thoughts came from people today that we'd see as you know...strict sorts. St. Augustine was a party animal turned relative weirdo for the day. Pope Sylvester II was a dude that chilled out with Muslims in Spain (a truly naughty act!). Erasmus, for him being noted as being notoriously no fun, was considered obscenely radical (that is til' his contemporaries started that little reformation business). Or even your beloved Ziff here. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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(Note the quotes around "free thinker" above  .) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| Excellent. | |||
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Metal Man88 Gold axe It appears we have been transported to a time in which everything is on fire! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6278 days Last view: 6278 days |
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| I believe this arises when someone who hasn't found their religion goes about instead criticising other religions other than finding their own. I mean, I'm definately not religious, and only spiritual in a weird, roundabout way, but that doesn't make all the other religions wrong and me right.
The problem I see here is that someone starts the topic with generalizations, followed by another person's anti-Christian viewpoint, who then are replied to by far more experienced people, and thusly silenced (because they likely don't understand the responders). This doesn't really make for much of a conversation, unless, say, the originators somehow understand the years of experience written down by the responders. Having seen many topics like this, it makes me wonder how much spiritual/religious information can be taught, if at all. That said, however, I do believe it an interesting study of the cross-communication between people relatively inexperienced in the subject to those who are. Being somewhere in-between, though, I wind up more of a bystander in this discussion. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| sorry for the empty post erlier i hit a button and had to leave before i could fix it
I will comment on your comments in the order they were given. In being a Christian you will not can not judge the existence of the lord. Because it says not to you cannot question the words of the bible. Or do you break the rules in the bible which say you shouldn’t? I meant this statement in a general sense in that if you follow each and every part of the bible like the world has told me to then you cannot question “god’s word”. You can only question its meaning since most of the bible is written in poetry like form which can be interpreted many ways because of its "symbolism". I have used my rationality the fact is there is no concrete thing behind religion as you said. I cannot choose one religion over another because each of them has the same amount of proof of their relevancy. They can’t all be right and I cannot assume blindly the one I might choose is right just because I get a funny feeling when I pray to that churches savior. This is not proof and I cannot be fully committed to a savior I have no proof in without withholding my rationality. About prayer it has been proven many times and many times again you want proof find it yourself. Just Google it http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=proof+prayer+doesnt+work&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 . I won’t give you my reasons I feel they would probably be biased, but at least notice the way people try to dress up the fact that their scripture lies to them over and over. If you want the short answer I will explain: You’re dieing-You want to live long enough to see your real dad and touch him in person, he’s getting out of jail next week. You believe in Jesus completely you pray with a pure heart. It doesn’t come true and you die. You cannot test Jesus as the bible says but you can witness others people’s prayers being unanswered go try. So when you ask not to die and you do anyways its means prayer doesn’t work….because god doesn’t help or hurt you correct? And yes mass hysteria as I see it, sorry but I see billions of people willfully believing without using their rationality. And I’m sick of abstract thought The bible says that it’s the word of god the word of god is perfect. So if the bible is flawed god didn’t make it. If man has somehow messed with the word of god and god didn’t fix this, what does this say to you? It says god doesn’t care. I’m really not trying to turn this into a flame or anything I swear. I was mad again when I made the last post. Recently I have turned my sights away from fighting what I see as flawed logic and working on studying the Greek philosophers maybe some of the eastern ones too who knows. But anyways believe what you want ill continue to argue about it but I’m no longer going to hold a grudge against people who believe it’s not healthy for either of us. (edited by Crayola on 11-28-06 03:49 AM) (edited by Crayola on 11-28-06 04:03 AM) |
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C:/xkas bio.asm Compiled ASM code  Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6278 days |
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Originally posted by Crayola why did you quote SS without adding nothing to the conversation 
... whatever, since I don't want to make a empty post ... I believe that religion only make you less 'free-thinker' if you see it as the absolute and undeniable truth and that their is 0% change that your religion(or lack of) is wrong. also, I found something quite interresting about 'free-thinking' on wikipedia (even thought I highly doubt you guy were refering to this  )
Originally posted by wikipedia Crayola: please meet some non-retarded christian. You REALLY need to open your mind more  (edited by C:/xkas bio.asm on 11-28-06 03:40 AM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by CrayolaYou need to do more research regarding the beliefs of the various Christian sects. Some fundamentalist Christian denominations will insist that the Bible is word for word fact, absolute truth, and totally indisputable, but most of the more reasonable Christians realize that the Good Book does definitely contradict itself at times, and that a good deal of what it says does not fit with the Christian mindset. (Remember that the greater part of that unchristian thought is found in the Old Testament, while the New Testament is universally understood as the more relevant book for Christianity.) Realizing that the Bible exhibits human flaws hardly invalidates the entire religion, and I think you're drawing a ludicrous and baseless conclusion if you say that it does. Originally posted by CrayolaAs long as you look for scientific evidence that one religion is correct and all others are wrong, you'll never be satisfied and your search will never turn up anything. On the other hand, if you're looking for proof in terms of "a funny feeling when you pray," you're likewise misguided. It's not about empirical proof, and it's not necessarily about some supernatural tickle in the pit of your stomach; it's about seeing a religion's doctrines and beliefs for what they are, agreeing with them, and desiring to pursue those tenets to the best of your ability. I don't think Catholicism is the way to go because a bunch of scientists say it is, or because Jesus comes down in a flash of light and gives me a great big hug every time I pray, but because the moral concepts espoused by the Church are the ones that I think are correct and should be upheld. Originally posted by CrayolaDon't be silly. You know that no religion will claim that its god answers every single prayer by appearing in a burst of smoke and setting everything right in the world. Christians, specifically, never say a thing about our God behaving like some sort of personal servant, catering to the trivial requests of humanity like some giant butler in the sky. He provided us with free will so that, just as we can hurt ourselves, we can also help ourselves. Prayer is a nebulous and mysterious concept, but we as Christians like to believe that our Lord pays attention to those who believe in Him and takes action - what sort of action, we cannot specifically know - in response. Anyway, to understand the concept of answering prayers, you can look to that old idea of the genie in the lamp. You rub the lamp and the genie appears, you decide you're hungry and you ask him to make you a ham sandwich, and poof - you're transformed into a ham sandwich. For all we know, God answers our prayers, but not in the ways we would originally intend. Your father might be afflicted with a terrible illness, and you pray to God to end his suffering, and the next day your father dies; you wanted his suffering to end by curing the disease, but God does it by bringing your father from this life into the next. It's hardly as if each situation is that clear-cut, but don't presume that you are so wise that you can see all the possible ways in which God could answer, or has answered, your prayers. And, of course, as God is omniscient, maybe He just understands that it is for the greater good that some prayers go unanswered, while we as humans cannot see those repurcusions that would accompany our requests. The old Butterfly Effect and all that. Originally posted by CrayolaAgain, it's not about sacrificing rationality. If religion could be disproven, you would be absolutely right: to believe would be irrational. But, as it stands, it's hardly irrational to believe in a God. It might seem like a fairy tale to you, but your manner leads me to suspect that you have some sort of axe to grind in the first place, so I'm not about to question your motives. Originally posted by CrayolaWhy? Isn't the capacity to think abstractly part of what makes us human? Why surrender that ability so readily? Originally posted by CrayolaNo, the Bible doesn't say it's the literal word of God, certain humans say that. The Bible may be divinely inspired, certainly, but only the most irrational Christians will argue that is God's words verbatim. Originally posted by CrayolaYou're tired of abstract thought, but you're off to study Greek and Eastern philosophy...alright, whatever you say. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| Then what do you believe and how do you justify it?
Please explain how you’re right and I’m wrong like I’ve heard a million times before. Because in truth you cannot say that your religion is logical because it is not, your religion makes as much sense as other religions and you have the same amout of proof. What you should rather say is I have no physical proof of my beliefs I base my findings on faith and faith alone is this not true? I can rationalize the possibility of god but you cannot rationalize what makes your religion any more right than other religions except for the religion you have chosen fitting your ideals or no? And yes a great deal of Greek philosophy teaches on logical non-abstract things Eastern philosophy I know nothing about but that’s just another reason to study it. (edited by Crayola on 11-28-06 05:42 AM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by CrayolaI believe in most of the tenets put forth by the Catholic Church. I justify it because I believe that the greater bulk of those values are simply declarations of what is truly, objectively "right." Originally posted by CrayolaThis isn't about me being right, you being wrong, and me proving all of that to you. This is about you stomping in here and declaring that the Almighty Crayola has all the answers in the world even though he's still a lowly teenager. I'm not here to convert you, I'm here to answer your childish and ignorant remarks. Originally posted by CrayolaDo you not get it at all? I don't have proof, and I never claimed that I do. None of us can. But...neither can you, eh? The fact of that matter is, you should believe what you believe because those values are what appeal to you. You shouldn't believe a specific religion (or disbelieve a specific religion) on the grounds of hard evidence, because there is rarely any such evidence at all. Originally posted by CrayolaOf course. Originally posted by CrayolaYou hit the nail on the head. Look at it this way: - My religion contains those moral teachings that I believe to be true and right. - God must be, by definition, the champion of what is true and right. - Therefore, since a religion that stands by all that is true and right is a religion that believes in a God who espouses those values, I believe that my religion has "found" the true God. The logic is a bit more convoluted that I had originally intended, at least when placed in that format, but I think I'm giving a good picture of the thought process. Originally posted by CrayolaConversely, a great deal of Greek philosophy deals with things that are absolutely abstract. The World of Forms versus the World of Matter, for example. If you were to leave out anything that is even the slightest bit abstract, you'd be neglecting a great deal of history and a great deal of valuable thought. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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“I believe in Kregamufch because the religion that preaches him (Kregamufchism) has values I like”. This is basically what you are saying that you would believe in any spiritual character or occurrence backed by your religion because you like the values; this is what I call being biased. Or do you not believe in your entire bible? And if you don’t how can you do this? I know man is flawed but god wouldn’t allow flaws in the bible would he? And if he would how do you know any of it is true, which parts are mans flaws and which parts are truly god’s words? Which parts should you believe, only the things you like? And why hasn’t god held these values sooner? And how exactly did they find these values? What about churches with close morals but differing stories which should you choose then? This is why I reject choosing religion, everyone says I haven’t found the right one yet, I cannot choose simply because I like what one says because I am not perfect therefore I cannot agree with everything god says so my values would not necessarily be those of him. I don’t really wish to have religion they all have the same amount of proof and mostly the same morals, to be condemned for simply not choosing the right one is vicious, I know I will not be punished for not choosing the wrong (or no) religion because if god exists he knows man is flawed and cannot make the right decisions. To surround us with two religions and also free-will would be dooming some for making the wrong choices. I am sure you probably do not believe that people of other religions go to hell just for being another religion, do you? And as for me believing in god I have an equation for that Nothing 0 = ∞ Everything I cannot conceive the possibility of this so I am skeptic, I know I exist or at least my consciousness is self-aware so something happened to make me so I cannot deny or swear to god’s existence. I am simply denying that you can be completely sure of one religion over another. And those who swear to be completely sure are fools. Does that about cut it? I’m really genuinely sorry for being an ass earlier, again…..I am trying to be nice but I have a screwy disposition to make my statements sound attacking when I’m only searching for answers. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by CrayolaOk, clearly either I didn't explain my point of view clearly enough. Let me try again. By definition, God must be perfect and He must encourage and espouse all those values that are Good. A religion that follows God must similarly follow those values, because naturally a deity's followers would adhere to whatever principles that deity has set forth. I believe the religion that I follow acknowledges those values that are Good, and so it logically follows that my religion believes in the "real" God because it goes by a righteous code of morality. In contrast, I would not follow Religion X because that religion believes in eating kittens, and I know eating kittens is wrong, so clearly Religion X does not follow a true god; since their perception of God allows the devouring of kittens, and the true God would not allow that because it is clearly an evil act, that religion cannot be true. Better? And no, it's hardly about being blind to new occurrences to the point that I would believe whatever my church tells me just because they say so. I believe that Catholic Church is generally right in just about every doctrinal tenet, but I'm not a deaf dumb and blind sheep. The Vatican is full of human beings, and they're perfectly flawed just as you and I. Originally posted by CrayolaA minority of Christians take the Bible as God's word verbatim, and a minority of Christians say that the Bible is the end-all of doctrine. I am a Catholic, and while we seek a Scriptural precedent in forming our doctrine, we understand that the book was created by the human hand and that it cannot be the sole impetus for our values. Originally posted by CrayolaGod gave us free will, but he also gave us His Church and His Bible and our human consciences, all of which are tools that lead us to the right path. If you are a Jew or a Muslim or an Atheist or a Protestant or a Catholic, you are doomed to Hell. Unless you are a good person. It's not about picking the right religion - I am fully aware that there are so many out there with so many conflicting messages that it can be difficult - but about living a good life. Belonging to the Church will certainly make that journey easier, but it's not the only path. Originally posted by CrayolaBut here you are, as an atheist, swearing to be completely sure that there is no god. Why is it alright to be positive that no god exists, but not alright to be sure that God does exist? |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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I said: I cannot deny or swear to god’s existence. I’m a skeptic. I did not claim to believe one idea more than the other they are equally substantiated. I was arguing religion not god, moreso the ideas behind religion. The equation I was suggesting shows how it’s equally impossible for god or a random act of nature to have made the world. 0 = ∞. If there was nothing how did all of us get here and if god made us then how did he get here? The answer cannot be known by now or at least I cannot think of a reasonable explanation for this the religious explanation for creation of the universe and the scientific theory (big bang) make the same amount of sense. They seem equally impossible (both explanations) to me yet we exist so it really makes you question a lot of things. I need to read up on this subject more before I can know what to think of it.
That’s really all that needs to be said.=) We can continue debating whatever is left to debate, thanks for sticking it out with me I really needed to hear what you have said. |
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