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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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Should Crimes That Hurt Only The People Doing Them Be Illegal| Yes |
42.9%, 6 votes | No |
57.1%, 8 votes | Multi-voting is disabled. 14 users have voted.
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Arwon Bazu                  Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| We have plenty of abortion threads elsewhere for people with their obsessions to threash it out in!
Why can't we talk about the folly of jailing drug users and prostitutes in this thread? |
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Koryo Keese   Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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I desecrate threads. Call me the unholy thread vampire. 
There is a difference, though. Blowing up abortion clinics is not heroic resistance any more than mob killing KKK members would be. Sure, Klansman are dumb racists but linching them or mobing them isn't the answer. We have a criminal justice system to punish Klansmen if they decide to act on their darker beliefs. In the same way, abortion should be defeated through a peaceful democratic process, not though abortion clinic bombing. Calling abortion murder in no way equates with the killing of supreme court justices and doctors who perform abortions. You should know better than that. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| But the difference is, Klansmen don't kill millions of people.
If one believes that abortion equates to murder, then one necessarily believes that millions of helpless people are being murdered every year. That's a full-fledged holocaust with government sanction and the complicity of many many citizens. If abortion truly was murder, resistance to this abortionist regime could then easily be justified as heroic, every bit as heroic as partisan violence in countries occupied by murderous regimes. You could kill 3 people (the right supreme court justices) and save millions of lives. It's cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty to equate abortion to murder simply to achieve a more effective rhetorical flourish, when clearly one doesn't truly believe it. Abortion is certainly squicky and some people don't like it, but equating it to the murder of a full-fleged living person is absurd, not to mention degrading to real living people dying real deaths every day. It's a hysterical, hyperbolic claim utterly without merit. |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Every pro-choice justice, abortion doctor, or even ordinary person killed in this hypothetical crusade would be a martyr. And that's essentially the definition of counter-productive.
And, of course, most Christian doctrine I know of does not approve of committing an evil act to prevent another evil act from occurring. The whole "lesser of two evils" thing is frowned upon in Christianity, as far as I know. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo Not they don't. Read the part of my post you didn't quote. Originally posted by Silvershield Yet that doesn't stop so many "pro-lifers" from supporting wars that kill tens of thousand innocent people, in the name of a cause they feel is just. If they really equated aborting a fetus with murdering a grown human being they would put ending abortion on the same level as ousting Saddam or killing terrorists. With the same amount of acceptable collateral damage. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield My main point isn't necessarily the literal one, that you should support these things. The much more important part of my argument is that, if abortion were truly equivalent to the murder of a human being, my suggestions wouldn't sound absurd. They'd be within the realms of legitimate debate and controversy, like waging wars and assasinations to prevent genocide, or violently resisting a murderous regime. They'd be a defensible position some philosophical views. Which they're not. The very notion I'm suggesting is lunacy, but that's not because of anything so facile as "Christians hate killing people". The mere fact that the notion of a resistance movement against the abortion holocaust sounds insane and absurd illustrates very clearly that the argument that "abortion equates to murder of a human" is bollocks. (edited by Arwon on 02-06-07 08:01 AM) |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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We can resolves the abortion issue peacefully in the US, because we have a democratic system in place. There was no such thing in Iraq. Passive resistance Gandhi style by the Iraqi people would have done nothing to remove Saddam. Only military force would accomplish that goal. Conversely, a bill could be passed tomorrow outlawing abortion by our legal, democratic representatives with no violence at all. That is the difference. Digest it.
So I don't believe that abortion is murder? How can you be sure of that? It's not true to say that, if I did believe abortion was murder, then I would advocate the murder of supreme court justices and doctors because, as I said above, there are peaceful ways to resolve the abortion issue. With Iraq, there were not. That is the difference.
So now I'm degrading "full fledged ling people" by comparing them to babies? That's truly original, in a truly disturbing way. Now who is trying to achieve a "more effective rhetorical flourish" eh? Originally posted by emcee The part of your post that I didn't quote earlier: Originally posted by emcee I contest that 33% statistic. Do you have a source for it? Here is a link with some different numbers. Link (edited by Koryo on 02-06-07 10:41 PM) (edited by Koryo on 02-06-07 10:48 PM) |
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SamuraiX Broom Hatter Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Nonetheless, by equating abortion with murder, one marginalizes the plight of actual people being killed. Embryos aren't babies, they're a bunch of cells that cannot perform any sort of human function. Bacteria are living, but when one cleans a desk with hand sanitizer, that isn't genocide, I should hope. Since in that case, chain me up and throw away the key; I've killed millions. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| Very well. Would you like your own cell, or would you be willing to share a cell with a criminal roommate?
A bacteria, though, cannot develop into a human. It is a biological fact that sexual reproduction in humans exists for one purpose and one purpose alone: to create more humans. Sex "feels good" because we have to want to do it, otherwise there would be no babies and we would go extinct. Human embryos do not come into existence by spontaneous generation, nor do they develop into anything other than a human. Thus, a human embryo is a potential human, which would turn into a "fully fledged" living human barring human intervention or the occasional fatal birth defect. A bacteria is not a human, either real or potential. Even a sperm cell is not a potential human, as it will not become a human on its own (for those of you not familiar with the birds and the bees, I'm sure you can read up on it on Wikipedia or some place). We have to do something to a sperm or an egg to make a human. Conversely, we have to do something to an embryo to make it not a human. An embryo is unique in that respect. |
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SamuraiX Broom Hatter Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6281 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo That's okay, since a fertilized embryo isn't a human either. I don't see what you mean by saying that reproduction exists to reproduce. I never would have guessed. As I, Arwon, and I don't know how many people have said already, a fertilized embryo does not display functions of a human being. I'm not a biology major, but I'm pretty sure that at the cellular level, the case is the same. Besides, this thread has gone off in a tangent. If you want to make an abortion thread, make an abortion thread. If you want to preach, this is not the place. You're not going to convert anyone. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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That's only because we're speaking from a distance. If I could but lay my hands on you, you would be an instant convert. And I may not convert you, but I can very easily prove that the logic supporting abortion is full of holes. As you said, an embryo does not exhibit the characteristics of an adult human, but (as I said), it is the only thing on this earth capable of becoming an adult human. Whether that embryo is a blastocyst composed mostly of infant stem cells, or something the size and shape of a large chicken embryo, it will within a very short period of time, barring outsider intervention or rare genetic defect, become a small human. Nothing else on earth can claim that unique characteristic. |
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SamuraiX Broom Hatter Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6281 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo If you lay your hands on me, conversion is going to be the least of your worries. Originally posted by Koryo The flaw in logic being that it is thrall to the passions. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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I'm now being threatened by a samurai? That's hardly as impressive as the dinosaurs and transdimentional beings that usually threaten me.
You're saying that people who oppose abortion are solely basing their believe on wild passions, and not on facts? That's pretty presumptuous, considering that I do (and have thought this thread) supported my side with facts and logic, not emotion (which I think would be a more accurate word than passion, because being passionate about something is not wrong). |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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