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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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Should Crimes That Hurt Only The People Doing Them Be Illegal| Yes |
42.9%, 6 votes | No |
57.1%, 8 votes | Multi-voting is disabled. 14 users have voted.
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Crayola Double stone axe                 Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| Do you fear men who sleep with prostitutes? Or people who smoke pot? What do you have to gain by locking them up? Locking them up or outlawing the crime solves nothing. Do we need to bring up the prohibition? What happened after we re-legalized alcohol? Did the world end or did the crime rate go down? Which was it?
The fact is locking them up only will add to the problem, and when you have an illegal product that people want they will obtain it is inevitable. So by locking the people who hurt only themselves you are raising taxes, but hunting the people who are only hurting themselves you are raising taxes, by taking these people through courts you are raising taxes. Have fun wasting money. Your argument is that it’s not the crimes but the people that surround the drug and prostitution world, government monitoring can fix many things I really cant think where the downside is to this, you monitor the prostitutes make sure they are healthy then send them out let the government be the pimps and put the old pimps in jail. -Crayola |
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Arwon Bazu     Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Um, dude, Ziff and I both support legalised prostitution (the status quo here), and much softer drug laws. All we're saying is the term "victimless" is extremely misleading and obscures the very real harms things like drugs and prostitution do. And not all of these harms can be put down to the effects of prohobition, some are just inherent in the nature of the thing. I for one support these things from a harm minimisation approach, not from ideas about some fantasy land where the only things making prostitution and drugs harmful is the mean old government banning them.
Prostitution is pretty inherently exploitative and relies to a large extent on broken and mentally damaged women--the post-feminist fantasy of empowered happy hookers is only a minority even in the liberal sexually liberated west, and even in libertarian utopia Amsterdam exploitation and sex slavery still runs rampant. Drugs, likewise, are inherently harmful to many people who take them, afte rall, just look at the massive social costs of perfectly legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco. Claiming these things are victimless is disingenious. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| Oops, I misinterpreted their meaning. Your basic argument is that the term “victimless crime” implies that it doesn’t hurt anyone at all. I feel dumb, at least you didn’t point out my mistake to a debilitating degree.
Well I still agree with the things I said above, the conversation did get a bit tricky back there. Sorry =) Maybe we could pick a different word to describe these types of crimes, would that help? |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Well they're not even necessarily crimes, that's purely a legal decision made in different jurisdictions. | |||
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| lets switch from victimless crimes and goto blue laws
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law what does everyone feel sabout them? heres a link check out your state here http://www.dumblaws.com/ Does anyone have any verification that these laws are true? oh and btw look at virginia it talks about the illegalized sex positions. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I've got my doubts about the truth of a lot of these laws, where's the referencing and verification and such?
A glance at the Australia page, for example, reveals: "A life sentence is 25 years" which is an incredibly simplistic interpretation of a complex legal debate about average sentence lengths, parole, whether "life" should mean dying in prison or merely "no guarantee of ever being released", and so forth. And "Until the Port Arthur Killings it was legal to own an AK-47 but not legal to be gay." - this seems to have its origins i9n hackneyed stand-up routines from the mid 1990s. Tasmania ended its sodomy laws about the same time as the killings (and incidentally now has Civil Unions and thus has moved further towards supporting gay rights than any other state), but I'm not sure the gun laws were all that lessaiz-faire anywhere in the country pre-1996. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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| its got codes at the bottom of the laws which can be looked up they look like this:
(Code 1950, � 18.1-363.1; 1974, c. 330; 1975, cc. 14, 15, 498; 1976, c. 569; 1978, c. 639; 1979, c. 400; 1982, c. 286; 1984, c. 369; 1988, c. 666.) But i'm not sure how to go about this. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Ah, well there was nothing like that on the Australia page.
We also don't have codes of laws, as such. Common Law and all that. |
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Salmon Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-18-05 From: Norway Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6284 days |
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| Blue Laws are interesting. Norway is probably one of the most secular countries in the West, but we're also one of the countries in the West with the most religion-inspired laws in the world. Shops and stores are not open on Sundays here. Alcohol may not be bought from shops and stores on Sundays, after 18:00 on Saturdays, or after 20:00 on weekdays. Wine and Spirits may only be bought from special government-owned shops that sell only wine and spirits and have a rather strict opening and closing-schedule. Then there's the whole state-owned Church of Norway, but that's a whole 'nother chapter.
I simply get frustrated from reading the DumbLaws section on Norway. I don't know if they're misunderstanding the situation or just putting up a bunch of laws that seem a bit foreign in order to have something to write on Norway. Let's review: "If your vehicle stalls and you leave it on the side of the road, you must mark the vehicle with a red, reflecting triangle." A week ago the sun set up here. It will return come January. Before that we'll have two months of complete darkness (at mid-day it gets to dusk, but that's as good as it gets). Norway, being a hilly country, is also filled with curved, small roads. So, all in all, complete darkness + lots of curves + small roads = red, reflecting warning triangle is a darn good idea. I guess whoever put that up as a dumb law enjoys smashing his car into stalled cars he can't see in front of him in the road. "A fee is levied on each purchaser of any plastic bottle which is returned upon return of the bottle." It's called envorinmentalism. You buy the bottle, you pay 1kr (~0.15USD), you drink the beverage, you return the bottle, the money is returned to you. The bottle, in return, is recycled. Course, most people don't hand in one bottle at a time, they save them up and hand in lots. Always great after having hosted a party to hand in the leftovers and get money for a morning-after-hamburger (yes, you can return beer glass bottles for recycling, too). "Licenses must be bought in order to own television sets, and even VCRs." It's a tax. It is used to run the Public Broadcasting, and make sure public broadcasting gives ad-free, good broadcasting. As opposed to America, where no one really watches Public Broadcasting, in Norway, the service is actually quite good, because of the tax. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6347 days Last view: 6310 days |
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This is done in america too if im not mistaken.And most of those other laws did not lookk to ridiculus As far as blue-laws they really make me sick to my stomach,Whats norways standpoint on seperation of church and state ? Do they have it or no? |
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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Originally posted by Thexare You're wrong for a variety of reasons: It's not a democracy, it's a Republic, don't forget that. Old men choose, everyone else supposedly chooses the old men, and everyone else doesn't. Religious ideals that get into laws is illegal and against your constitution. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| Alkis: the distinction between democracy and republic is, in this case, mostly irrelevant. Just as there are no "communist" nations (where the factory and field laborers work equally and share equally in the profits, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, with no leaders at all), there are also no truly democratic countries where the people have final and constant power over every aspect of life. Just as we refer to the USSR, Cuba, and China as "communist nations", we may as well refer to the US, Great Britain, France, Germany, etc at democratic nations. Don't think that you're proving your intelligence by pointing out our lack of understanding of the basic political terms.
And you are also confused about separation of church and state. Religious ideals finding their way into laws is not illegal, and also common. Why is there no work on Sunday? Why is Christmas a federal holiday? What does it say on our money? Even our most basic laws against murder could be considered "religious" (most world religions, not just Christianity, define and condemn murder). |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Concerning blue laws, if you universally condemn them then you are not examining every aspect of the issue. I live in Bergen County, the northeastern-most county of New Jersey, one of the only (if not the only) places in the region that still enforces blue laws. If you want to go shopping on a Sunday, your best bet is to cross the border into New York State and visit the Palisades Center in West Nyack.
Now, why are the laws still relevant here in Bergen County? Well, I live within 20 minutes of five or six different malls, and you can imagine that on Saturdays, as well as the days preceding Christmas and other holidays, the roads around here are a nightmare. To open up Sunday as a shopping day would make that a seven-day-a-week problem, rather than the somewhat preferable six-day-a-week problem it is at the moment. I'm fortunate to live off the beaten path, so to speak, so it's not as if there are cars driving by my house at every hour on Saturdays, but anyone who lives anywhere near a major road has to deal with an incredible amount of traffic. Is it unreasonable for them to enjoy one day a week that's guaranteed to be relatively peaceful? It's not entirely a "separation of church and state" issue. It might've been at first, but I think most places that maintain blue laws have discovered new, more practical reasons. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Nah, that's a problem with shitty government and planning and a bit of NIMBY anti-development sentiment... and a convenient yet archaic law being used as an ad hoc method of salving a situation they helped create through negligent government. Pretty marginal case, especially since trading hours are hardly the central issue when we're talking about moralistic laws against things like drugs, sex and prostitution and how laws against them are wholly inappropriate and often counterproductive.
Of course, you could always move, no-one's forcing you to live there if its so unbearable. (edited by Arwon on 12-29-06 09:13 PM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonIn my experience, "blue laws" typically refer to how shops are closed on Sundays, even though it is technically a much broader term. Like I said, though, just my experience. Originally posted by ArwonI feel like that's not really ironclad logic. "If you don't like it, leave" isn't always a reasonable mantra. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| True that. | |||
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo I am not calling for communism. I am calling for true Democracy. If religious ideals are going to get into my country's constitution, then at least I want to be able to vote against it. However, in a Republic, you're limited to vote for an old man to speak for you and cross your fingers hoping he'll vote how you want... A true democracy would work a lot better, I will keep saying this. A true democracy would make sure that only laws that the majority wants actually get into law, and not old men's ideas that only old men in a blue room get to vote on. People are also happier when they get a say in their laws. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| But such a political system does not exist. You can theorize about a perfect political system all you want (which is indeed what Karl Marx did), but that won't get you there within your life time. Don't think your the first person to do that.
Also, religious ideals permeate every aspect of modern western states. You might as well come to terms with that, since it has been the case for centuries. What most non religious people would call "common sense" or "common laws" or "respect for fellow man" are in fact based on religious ideals. Many laws in the US come, however indirectly, from Christianity, because most immigrants to the US were Christian Europeans, and Europe was a largely Christian place because of the adoption of Christianity by the Romans before their collapse. I have no problem with atheists. I do, however, have a problem with atheists who can't comprehend the Christian based history of most of the west, and seem to think that their "secular modern values" simply sprang out of thin air rather than gradually evolving from Christian ethics. |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6282 days Last view: 6282 days |
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| The potential problem with true democracy is the possibility that the masses can be easily manipulated or can be ignorant, leading to terrible laws. Imagine a true democracy in a very racist nation for example, you'd get very racist laws. Or what if the majority of the nation were one religion and decided to vote to outlaw all others, and make it a capitol offense to speak against the majority religion? I think before that sort of government could be truly successful you'd have to have a large majority of people who are well educated.
The idea that the US is a christian-only based nation is kinda far-fetched. Sure there were some people who were influential and also christian, but so what? The basic idea is not christian at all, it is Greek, from a time when people were worshipping Zeus and his pantheon of deities. That does'nt make it Greek religion based, its more based on the rational thinking of the time. Most laws based on common sense, are just that, based on common sense. If common sense corresponds with christianity on any given topic, that does'nt automatically make it a christian law. Having respect for your fellow man is a far older idea that Christianity, most likely older than any of us can conceive. We only have a written record going back 5000 or so years in some areas, but mankind has been around much much longer than that. Common sense has been with us considerably longer than 2000 years. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo So? I'm less interested in the veracity of this argument than in the motive for it. It's okay to make laws based on forcing outdated and counterproductive morality on people because, hey, back in the dim dark days most people believed in god? |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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