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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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Should Crimes That Hurt Only The People Doing Them Be Illegal| Yes |
42.9%, 6 votes | No |
57.1%, 8 votes | Multi-voting is disabled. 14 users have voted.
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Crayola Double stone axe                   Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| I personally think punishing crimes that have no affect on you is ignorant.
A Question I would like answered is how do people justify punishing these crimes? |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places    Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I'm guessing you're primarily referring to currently-illegal drugs? (edited by Thexare on 11-24-06 06:11 PM) |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| No I’m referring to every punishable act that is victimless. Here’s a report I did to sum it up:
I’ve decided I should probably make a topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime Victimless Crime, Things that or illegal even though they hurt no one. They often stem from religious morals and such. A few examples: Sex in any other orifice than the vagina is illegal Gay marriage is illegal Having underage sex is illegal (even when both parties agree to have sex) Buying beer on Sunday is still illegal in some places. Buying using or selling drugs is illegal. Public Show of affection is illegal Showing ones underwear in public is illegal (this one was taken out recently, but shows the depths of politician’s ignorance.) Prostitution is illegal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are probably many more crimes that fall into this category. And also keep in mind that some of these laws only apply to VA -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A few links for research http://www.halexandria.org/dward267.htm http://www.privacilla.org/government/victimlesscrimes.html http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-1615-[url]VictimlessCrimesandObjectivism.aspx http://seegras.discordia.ch/Essays/VictimlessCrime.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The main Point to all of this is that these crimes hurt no one except the person(s) committing them, what does have an effect on society more than these crimes is the punishment of these crimes which is costing the taxpayers millions if not billions of dollars every year. It is ignorance which propels these laws and allows them to continue to exist. The idea of doing things for the greater good possibly is the worst thing a man or woman could do. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (edited by Crayola on 11-24-06 06:23 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Like you already pointed out, it's all about power and control. Some people believe in their heart that they are exactly right about everything and if you are'nt living just like them then you are sick and twisted, or at the very least wrong. They will toss around the word morals, moral decay, fall of the Roman empire, etc. They will come up with propaganda to make it seem like severe harm is being caused where none actually is (for example, Marijuana is a gateway drug, or a 16 year old having consentual sex with their BF/GF is being forcibly raped because they cant give consent legally). Their reasoning is based on fear rather than cold hard facts.
I think that our entire legal system needs redone. It can be made much simpler, throw out every law where there is no clear and definitive victim or property damage. Then make the punishments fit the crime on whats left. The only thing worse than making some bullshit law is making the punishment life ending for it. I believe that it should be a pre-requisite of every judge to do a year in a maximum security prison as an inmate prior to taking the bench. That way they know exactly what they are sentencing people to, and possibly that would make conditions more humane in there. |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Crayola I'll address each of these in order, since it's easier that way than making a generalized statement: 1: wtf 2: I'll just say I disagree with it being illegal, and add a request to not bring up the debate again. It gives me headaches. 3: It's a matter of understanding the act and its consequences, some underage people do and some do not. So this law I can understand, to an extent. Besides which, legal or not, I learned one thing from high school - teenage girls can be manipulative lying bitches, and some of them would have nothing against willingly having sex with someone, later accusing them of rape, and being able to act well enough on the stand to convince people that it happened that way. That last sentence (that is, the run-on) isn't an argument in favor of illegality, though the first sentence is. 4: ... it is? 5: I think it should have similar restrictions/regulations as alcohol and tobacco, we've gotten into that here before, there should be other threads in the forum if you want to look through them. 6: retarded, nothing more to say about that 7: Removed recently as you said, so let's not get too far into that. However, I think I know which law you're referring to, living in Virginia as I do... 8. Regulate and tax it. Seriously. It will happen, legal or not, since enough people see it as a way to make an easy couple bucks, may as well take advantage of the situation. That may seem like a terribly mercenary perspective, but I think it's better to make money off something that doesn't hurt anyone than to waste money fighting it simply because some religious people say it's "wrong". Especially when that money could go towards hunting down more dangerous criminals, the kidnappers, rapists, and murderers. On a final note, I blame a lot of the above on Christians. Argue all you want about whether or not there's a seperation between church and state, it's simply impossible to permanently seperate the two without having the government run by a bunch of automatons. The way I see it, there's no non-religious explanation for most of the victimless crimes (possible exceptions: drugs, public displays of affection), and what religion do most Americans at least claim to follow? Now, don't take offense to that anyone, I'm simply saying that it's a side-effect of religion, and I think that most people posting in here would understand my rationale behind it. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6346 days Last view: 6309 days |
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| Once more I am brought to a conclusion:
Education is the answer. That’s it ______bottom line education will pull people out of their religion filled worlds and into logic. I must also submit that if religion wishes to quit being bashed by intellectuals then they need not meddle in politics trying to gain power by forcing their beliefs on others. I honestly do not think half the evangelists in politics and on tv believe in what they are saying or their own religion, they just rouse the ignorent minds up in fear of one thing or another to gain support. Just for fun you can read this http://blog.myspace.com/kevin_ray_smith Its my blog on myspace dont laugh it has quite a few good points on religion and politics a couple that have previously been posted on this board. |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| actually, you kinda missed hwat I intended to say. I probably screwed the wording up though.
It's a democracy. Most of the country is religious. Religious ideals getting into laws is pretty much unavoidable. |
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Crashman Grizzo  Since: 12-26-05 From: Maine Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6316 days |
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| Ah, morals and ethics. This may have already been said, but MORALS are a description of how you feel about something. ETHICS are a set of rules that follow or justify your MORALITY. Views on morals and morality (example: killing people is bad) shape our ETHICAL code structure (Example: killing is bad, so we won't allow people to kill each other; its a rule).
The Problem is, people would rather loose their liberty for the illusion of security, which is were we run into BLANKET LAWS such as statuetory rape. This is a touchy subject, cause no parent ever likes to think that their little kid is banging the other kid next door at the tender age of 14 but yeah, it happens. The law was really designed to keep 30-somethings from picking up dates at junior high schools and such. It has since become a club that angry parents often use against their child's sig. other. All crimes have consequences. Some have victims. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I sexually assaulted my own penis and I feel like shit THIS POLL IS BULLSHIT IMO.
No such thing as a victimless crime. You, the criminal, commiting a crime against yourself is still making you the victim. Logical fallacy. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Prostitution is rarely victimless. I could write a book on the problems of prostitution and the various problems that legalization prevents. | |||
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| We need more brothels to prove that theory wrong. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| That theory is proven right, constantly.
Brothels only show the LEGAL side of prostitution. That doesn't mean that the other activities around it are legal and victimless. The rate at which women are being taken in as slaves is unbelievably high. Such to the point that at this point in history there are more humans in bondage then there ever has been. (edited by Plus Sign Abomination on 11-26-06 11:40 PM) |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The point is that if prostitution werent a crime, there would be no victims. It would only be a crime in the eye of the beholder. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Did you even read my post?
Do you know what slavery is? Slavery is not victimless. Prostitution will never be victimless. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| So what are these things revolving around prostitution that aren't always legal or victimless? Robbing a bank perhaps? A prostitute gets paid to have sex with someone. If it were legal, there would be no slavery because slavery is unconstitutional. Surely, there will still be the underground, but even dirty rat pimps can be persuaded to set up their own shop.
Don't forget, everything that follows rules gets burned for not playing by them in the end. It's an inevitability. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Alright. There is legal prostitution in Amsterdam. Incidentally, there are still pimps, you know why? There is a parallel illegal network in operatiopn. You know why? because legal prostitution is extremely expensive, and a lot of people don't want to pay mass amounts of money. And some people have weird tastes, like children. When prostitution is legalized it creates a stronger underground prostitution network that is even more vicious and worse for the women and CHILDREN involved. There is no way around in making prostitution a victimless crime. Even in Amsterdam women are taken from countries like Ukraine and Russia to the city to be prostitutes through a scheme of forcing them to accumulate debt to a pimp who trafficks them for a few months until they pay down the debt, during that term they're complete slaves. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| There will always be crime, murder will always be illegal, but there will always be murders. I dont think there has ever been a law in the history of laws which has completely erradicated the crime it covers. So how is this an argument against legalizing anything?
There needs to be an honest assessment of how much damage is caused by keeping something illegal versus legalizing it. I personally feel that Marijuana should be legalized. Because the "victim" suffers very little harm and has very low chance of indirectly harming someone else. I would be against legalizing heroin, because the victim suffers alot, most likely will become hopelessly addicted, and has a high chance of committing crimes against others while under the effects of the drug. I would never visit a prostitute, but I think that also should be legalized, for the simple fact that it is your body, and should be your right to use it however you want. There will always be an underground of people with sadistic S&M fantasies wanting to hurt prostitutes or wanting child prostitutes, but what do they have to do with some businessman paying for ordinary sex on a trip? Legalized it would at least be a little safer. (if things like STD testing are used in the regulation, and also with prostitutes then free to call the cops like anyone else if someone is trying to force them into something they dont want.) I just have a problem with people insisting someone is a victim when they dont agree. To be a victim the damage should be medical in nature, monetary in nature, or at the very least something the "victim" feels very strongly has harmed them. Society should never be considered a victim except in cases where pollution and the environment are involved. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Surely the problems of sex slavery go far beyond the legal/illegal status of prostitution in different countries and more has to do with the poor way in which sex slavery is dealt with by various governments. I mean, I'm sure you've heard of all the cases where the victims end up being arrested on immigration charges or somesuch similar farce, for example.
I'm a bit confused though, you're for legalised prostitution despite the problems of the international sex trade--just objecting to the term "victimless", yes? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Effectively.
I hate it being referred to as victimless. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Quite.
There's a difference between individual instances of something being victimless, and the concept as a whole being victimless. The same applies to drugs, actually. Drugs, in the aggreggate, have plenty of victims. So does prostitution. That doesn't mean evert prostitute is a victim, or that every user is a victim. I don't like the term "victimless crime" for this reason--it implies that there's not harms being done and therefore we shouldn't care. I hesitate to use the term, but it's a very liberal-bourgeois conception of victimhood and choice at work, that thinks just because somebody else isn't being beaten up or robbed of their property, there's no victim and no potential crime. Usually the best approach to things like drugs and prostitution is a "harm minimisation" approach wherein we acknowledge that there are significant harms and problems, but try to reduce the harm done to the most vulnerable and victimised--junkies and sex slaves and so forth. This is especially important since "ban and persecute" approaches, which are the norm in most countries, and which involve arresting prostitutes and drug-users and jailing them, actually add to the harm and add to the victimhood of the vulnerable. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Victimless Crimes |
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