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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Saddam Hussein |
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Koryo Keese                   Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| Ziff, if you had read my last couple posts, I said Saddam's death had nothing to do with Iraqi democracy. An Iraqi democracy could succeed or fail whether Saddam lives in jail or dies, and Iraq's democratic institutions (what few there are) are not in the least tarnished by Saddam's execution. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES  Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| "If the Iraqis want him dead, its their right."
I'm pretty sure that that is an instance of you equating his death penalty to democracy. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| Not at all. If I said "Iraqi democracy cannot succeed while Saddam lives", then I would be equating democracy with Saddam's death. But why is Saddam's life the only one people are interested in protecting? Do you think the US forces should withdraw from Iraq within 6 months? Because the ensuing violence would kill thousands of Iraqis. Why do you spend more time and text talking about Saddam's death than the people Saddam killed? | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Umm, I'm a supporter of the Surge Theory.
I just think that this is a stupid move that should've been stopped. Not the right way to assert your new powers |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| Well, I'm glad you're a supporter of a surge. I only hope its not too late.
I'm with the Iraqis on this. If the Iraqis didn't want Saddam dead, there would have been a massive increase in violence and protests. I even saw celebrating in Dearborn Michigan (home to quite a few Muslims). I just don't think they have done anything to dirty their own democracy (fragile though it is), by executing Saddam. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| The surge theory is a PR campaign, not a strategy. It's a way of establishing future lack of culpability on the part of the people who actually started the war, a sort of "well we tried" thing. Soon they'll be able to blame the libruls and the media for losing the war just like they did in Vietnam.
The war is lost. According to the stated objectives it's been unwinnable since practically the initial invasion. Sorry. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Oh, it is unwinnable. But we can still minimize the damage that we caused. It is kind of our duty to try to fix a few things. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| Its unwinable considering that most of America is not involved, committed, or even interested, and because Bush thought it would be a quick war. I agree that a surge probably won't work now because 1, its probably far too late, considering the amount of bad blood between Sunnis and Shiias that foreign terrorists have been able to instigate, and 2, very little that we do in Iraq at this point will actually be an attempt to "win" or "stabilize" Iraq but will actually just be an attempt to "lose more gracefully" or "lose less."
Edit: but the whole war could have been done differently from the start, and we could be in a very different Iraq by 2006. But that's not the subject of the thread, so I'm not sure we should go into a detailed discussion. That could fill 5 threads and then some. (edited by Koryo on 12-29-06 11:41 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| No, its unwinnable because of the choices made immediately after the invasion and the lack of foresight with the idea of holding down a country for a short period of time with a Lean Mean Cyborg Army. Rumsfeld fucked it up.
America's public did nothing to lose the war. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Losing gracefully should probably involve a heartfelt apology on behalf of my country, and a pledge to behave better internationally in the future. But that's just me writing a 2008 victory speech for Al Gore. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| Ziff: blaming Rumsfeld is taking a very narrow and exclusionary view. Many in the Bush administration felt the same as Rumsfeld. Why he has become the poster child for all that is wrong in Iraq, I don't really know. And I didn't say the American public "lost" Iraq. I said the American public is not even fighting in Iraq (and I don't mean in the sense of them enlisting in the army). If given the choice, most Americans right now would gladly pull out of Iraq, and they wouldn't even think of or know about the consequences that will follow and the thousands of Iraqis who will die in the chaos that follows a US withdrawal.
Arwon: you think Al Gore will win in 2008? LOL You are a dreamer.  (edited by Koryo on 12-29-06 11:48 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Because he led the military? He becomes the Fall Guy for that. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| If it makes you feel better to make Rumsfeld your scape goat, then so be it. But we will learn nothing by offhandedly saying "it was all Rumsfeld's fault." Assuming that things would have gone swimmingly had Rumsfeld only not been in power will only give us delusions that will come back to bite us later. | |||
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonThat's funny considering how Gore has explicitly stated on no less than three occasions that he has no intention of running in 2008. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| TWAJS. | |||
emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Back to the original topic: I hate the death penalty. But as long as the Iraqis have the death penalty, I don't see any reason for them to spare Saddam specifically. They have every right to operate their judicial system as they see fit. | |||
Shadic The Adventure of Link Perfect Member Since: 11-18-05 From: Olympia, Washington Last post: 6286 days Last view: 6282 days |
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| And as another post on topic...
He's dead now. |
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n3g-Z3r0 theory Rat Since: 01-09-06 From: Augusta, Ks Last post: 6322 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| on the fact that he's dead 6:06 a.m. (Iraqi) do you think they will ever publicly show his entire execution? not just the putting him in the noose but the entire thing...
On the note: the death penalty is one of the issues that actually made our country. Allow me to explain before you all go, Blasphemy! As new peoples coming to this country, we brought our puritan religion, in most cases, and the idea that we should be able to choose whatever we wanted. In this case: The Puritans had their witch trials in which they thought that there were actual witches and therefore they slaughtered many innocent people, just because they were all poisoned on ergot, the main ingredient of LSD. Further in history to the Patriot Era: Treason was the crime they were committing, a crime justifiable by death. Death back in this time was merely martyrdom to them. After the Patriots won the Revolutionary War, they made the Articles of Confederacy and Constitution came later. The point I'm trying to make in all of this is back then political parties weren't afraid to exercise the actual rights they had and use the coup de gras death penalty because they believed in punishment for actions. Also, this country was built on religion and the religion it was built on was the mixing pot of puritanism and branches of other types. In all they had the Bible as their back and in the Bible it is shown on many accounts that if you kill someone then you should be killed. Do unto others as you would have done onto you. If you kill, you better be ready for the reprocussions of your actions. And for the record, it is still legal to hang or firing squad in Texas and Electric Chair in Kansas. To make the death penalty most humane as possible, they instated lethal injection. |
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Salmon Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-18-05 From: Norway Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6284 days |
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| You speak about "this country" and "we" as if you are totally oblivious of the fact that this is an international forum, or the fact that the hanging actually took place in Iraq. Are you trying to advocate that capital punishment in Iraq ahould be judicial practice, basing your argument on capital punishment's prevalence in the history of the United States?
Me, I am principally against capital punishment. I do not feel that it should be the right of a state government to decide whether a person should live or die. Once a government believes it has this right, it opens up for the government to do other quite nasty stuff. 
I also don't think killing Saddam Hussein was the wisest thing to do if one wanted to build peace and stability in the middle east (which is what we all want, is it not?). Hamas has already gone out and condemned this as an action of the "imperialist Americans" and are basically calling out for action from Arabs. (on a side note, did anyone catch the press conference where one of the Hamas people were wearing a hat with the New York Yankees-symbol? I'm guessing he didn't know what the symbol was for (at least I know that 'round these parts, many people wear hats like that without having a clue that it has anything to do with an American baseball-team), but I just thought the whole thing was too funny and ironic.) I believe in the old saying that you can kill a man, but you can't kill the ideal. Killing Saddam Hussein has given his supporters something to fight for, a martyr that they can avenge. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Heh, god forbid he will be marked a martyr. Humans such as he deserve no dignity like that.
I don't think he should be killed. I don't think he killed all the people he was accused of. I think he might have been pinned for some things other members of his regime did *cough*canadataxscandal*cough*. Seeing as there's no visible evidence to prove otherwise, I see no reason to accuse him completely. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Saddam Hussein |
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