Originally posted by Silvershield

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Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination

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But what about the social suffering that you inflict surrounding him?

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What if he is a homeless man with no relationships, whether family or friends or otherwise, and nobody would even notice he is gone? Is it alright then?

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Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination

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Sadly, the homeless issue is normally just shunted aside and the people are left to die. So that is already the natural societal response to it - for the most part.

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Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination

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Well, it is condoned by society for the most part. People make squawks about this, that and the other thing. But they're not going to actually rectify the sitation leading to this societal problem. So this brings to question whether the will of society should over ride certain "moral" obligations. And if this is true then any moral (that is, if there are any) considerations surrounding abortion can be tossed out the window.

You know, you can actually give a little lip service to the problem and let the problem perpetuate. You never have to come up with a solution to the root cause of the problem. That's what the abortion debate is about. It is a way to escape other things which more directly affect society as a whole.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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Passively allowing something isn't much different to actively causing it, really.

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Originally posted by Silvershield

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it's easy for an American to turn a blind eye to torture because it is so distant from us. It's happening in Cuba, or in the Middle East, but not anywhere near our own soil.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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Yep, and that's an enormous problem. When we don't put more money into, just as one example, simple, cost-effective, life-saving things such as distributing anti-diarrhea medication, we're basically condemning tens of thousands of children to death every year.

When people get so hysterical and fetishistic over little bits of foetal tissue, the juxtaposition is quite illuminating.

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Originally posted by Tauwasser

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Well, you didn't answer though. The link contained nothing I was concerned about. You said I could show you any living (or once-living) thing and you could tell if it was human or not. You failed that test miserably.

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Originally posted by Tauwasser

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Another anaology: There's a man in your custody that knows the code to a secret bunker where your family is and dies right now. Would it be immoral to torture him to get the code and save a few lives?

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Originally posted by Tauwasser

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But obviously they don't. They invade other countries to rape their natural goods as well as other things and leave nothing but atrocity behind. Your argument is somewhat broken.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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I'm arguing that the equation between preventing potential future lives by killing foetuses, and actual REAL LIFE CHILDREN DYING EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF OUR FUCKED UP PRIORITIES, is grotesque. When people in their comfortable little air-conditioned mini-mall adjacent homes and stick bumperstickers on their SUVs and sit there and tut-tut about the "holocaust of little baaaaybeeez" with barely a cursory glance at the actual suffering, misery and death that befalls millions of children beyond this shiny country-fried bubble world... it speaks of massively flawed priorities. By holding up foetal life to be the equivalent to real children, you debase the suffering and misery of real children.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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That's to say nothing of the massive disconnect between hysterical "it's murder" rhetoric and the ACTUAL opinions of these people who say such. I mean, if philosophically one believes that it's truly murder, then one is sitting by and doing nothing but whine as millions of people are being killed. Anyone who believes abortion is murder should be out there bombing clinics, killing abortion doctors and pro-abortion judges, kidnapping women who're going to abort in order to restrain them and force them to have their children, and so forth. They would be practically compelled into joining the baby-liberation underground and assisting in any way they could. This would be heroic vigilantism on par with the French Resistance. Anything less would be complicity in the Holocaust.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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Not everyone in a resistance movement is a killer, most are just the support network for those who do the fighting. You don't have to directly kill. You can harbour people in safehouses, fund them, lie to the authorities, steal things, kidnap people, set off bombs and fires that don't kill people. This is a HOLOCAUST of MILLIONS here, SS, don't be weak... you should be doing everything you can! There are no excuses, if you and others truly believe a holocaust is occurring, for not organising such a movement. LIVES ARE AT STAKE.

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Originally posted by Arwon

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That's why you kidnap people planning to have abortions and spirit them away so they can't go get them done and have to have the babies.

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Originally posted by Ogama Dobe

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I don't see why people make such a big fuss over this. Because if it doesn't affect you then why do you have to make a fuss over it? It makes very little difference to guys. Besides, if it is unborn then it hasn't become alive yet.

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Originally posted by n3g-Z3r0 theory

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"Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5). Obviously, as soon as the sead finds it's way to the egg it becomes a human, in a sense, God has a plan for all of us and he knows our life before we are born. To solve problems such as abortion I propose the following plan

1. That all women must apply for a pregnency permit before being allowed to create a child
2. Before handing out a pregnency permit the woman must be tested for compitency including: Ability to support child, be not mentally retarded, etc..etc..
3. After recieving permit they are allowed one child. They can re-apply for another permit at anytime after child is born; however, they will go through the same process again.
4. if a pregnet women is stopped and doesn't have proof of a permit, she will be forced to pay a heavy fine; including, the inability to keep child i.e. adoption

With the above plan enacted, the "great debate" over abortion should be solved and children will be able to grow up in a compitent family and thus be able to have a better future.

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