Originally posted by JDavis

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Silvershield, it seems to me that you're stuck on the idea of worshiping a higher power... Atheists worshiping humans or worshiping aliens or worshiping the universe... When the simple fact is, atheists don't worship ANYTHING. To them, there is NO higher power. Everything's the same power. We are simply the best smelling poop, aliens (if they exist) are also poop (possibly better smelling, but still poop), and the universe is just the giant toilet that we all float around in.

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Originally posted by JDavis

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Being agnostic, I can assure you that we humans are perfectly capable of getting along (and acting morally, for that matter) without having to put something up on a pedestal.

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Originally posted by Crayola

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Oh and P.S. Silversheild there is no "magic" , magic does not exist bottom line.

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Originally posted by Crayola

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Is there any scripture in the bible says someone should do something that is deemed immoral in society?
If so then religion is not nessesary or even a good way to pick morals for the rest of society.

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Originally posted by Silvershield

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An atheist would say something like, "This world and this universe are arcane and enormous, but I understand those concepts and I therefore understand the universe. Certainly many of its specific laws and phenomena are beyond my personal capability, but there is nothing "magical" about any of it."

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Originally posted by Thexare

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I object to the "I therefore understand the universe" bit. What does believing no gods exist have to do with understanding the universe?

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Originally posted by Thexare

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And, to flip this around, wouldn't you saying that you "know" God exists mean that you're saying you understand the universe? And wouldn't that, therefore, be the same arrogance you're complaining about?

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Originally posted by Jomb

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Silvershield - How is going by the best set of facts and theories currently available arrogance? I'm not claiming that everything we know in science is perfect and absolute, probably much of it is wrong or over-simplified, but it's the best we got right now. I don't believe in god because i see no hard compelling evidence of god, but i'm not of such an arrogant attitude as to INSIST FERVENTLY that there are no gods.

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Originally posted by Jomb

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If I were to roll a trillion sided dice and come up with a random number, say it came out 13. The chances of that happening were astronomically low, but at the same time it had to be one number and no matter which one it was it would have defied the odds. That does'nt make it the will of "God".

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Originally posted by Jomb

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As an Atheist I'm not claiming that I can perfectly understand the universe, I'm just claiming that I will go by the best available facts when attempting to do so, and encourage investigation of things we dont understand in the hopes of better understanding them, rather than writing it off as "the incomprehensible will of god".

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Originally posted by Jomb

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Something to consider - if there is a God as put forth in the Bible, he is not a good god, I'd go so far as to say he is a cruel and evil god. He is all-knowing and all-powerful, right? So he knows way ahead of time how you will turn out and whether or not you will go to hell. Knowing full well that some people will end up in eternal suffering, he still creates them, apparently out of a twisted desire to see people suffer. He also seems to have a disturbing hang-up on people bowing down and praising him endlessly, is he that low in self-esteem? Why create billions of people who follow the "wrong" religions, causing them to go to hell? Why not, at the very least, tell each person directly that if they dont convert to whichever branch is the right one, that they will suffer eternal torment? It's not like that would be great effort for an all-powerful all-knowing being.

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Originally posted by Jomb

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I do think that all religions have lessons in them which can be useful and helpful to people, when viewed as mythology and fables, not when taken literally as historical fact. Jesus, for example, had many wise things to say, though I dont believe he was supernatural.

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Originally posted by Jomb

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JDavis - I'm not really that scatologically oriented

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Originally posted by Silvershield

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So, you've replaced an old bearded man in the sky with apparent worship of the universe itself. You seem to prostrate yourself before the notion of our great, all-encompassing, all-powerful universe, and speak of it in just the self-deprecating manner that a religious person would use when praising God. Is not such veneration of the natural world practically an example of religion in itself?

In any case, regardless of how it's framed, an atheistic philosophy states that, even though our world and our universe are unimaginably complex and many of the phenomena we witness are absolutely beyond our understanding, we humans still can understand it.

Maybe not with modern technology, or modern philosophy, or any other modern tool, but that capacity still exists simply because the universe is nothing special. It is the same collection of unbreakable natural rules that exist on Earth, only on a much grander scale. An atheist insists that we as humans are essentially equivalent to our universe, in the sense that both operate on a set of arbitrary laws constructed by nature and perhaps by chance.

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I call atheists arrogant because, while any person who subscribes to a belief system that includes some Higher Power necessarily understands that humans are not The Best There Is, any atheist absolutely sees the world in that way. An atheist says that we as human beings are the utmost, the paragon, the absolute kings of this Earth and beyond

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Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny

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Silvershield, I'm confused about how that means he isn't atheist. He doesn't believe in a god of any form, but if one were to appear in front of him and prove to him that it was a god, he would believe in that god. That's called being a logical human being. I could be certain the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it true. He does say he doesn't insist that a god doesn't exist, because it's offensive as hell to go up to someone and say "Your god isn't real". I won't do that to you, I'll believe/know he doesn't exist, but my perception is limited and he might exist

You believe in God, but if you're wrong that doesn't mean you're a different religion, it just means you're religion was wrong.

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ressed certain vacillation in declaring that a god does not exist, rather than absolutely taking a stand in one direction, and so displays the signs of agnosticism rather than atheism. What I am referring specifically to is:

Originally posted by Jomb

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[...]i'm not of such an arrogant attitude as to INSIST FERVENTLY that there are no gods.

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I could certainly be reading this wrong, or simply interpreting it wrong, but what I've taken from that statement is, by not "insisting fervently," he is not taking a definitive stand. Atheism requires fervent insistence.

Originally posted by Arwon

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Uh, no. That's nonsense. Being aware of our essential meaninglessness, and using the scale and complexity of the universe and the limitations of the laws of physics to illustrate this point, does not constitute worship. The universe basically, sucks. It's cruel, transitory, inefficient, doomed, and doesn't much want us here (frankly, if it has a creator, that motherfucker has a LOT to answer for). Moreover, is the universe knowable? Of course not, because of our limited perceptions. 3 dimensions, 70 years, a limited spectrum of light and sound frequencies, some tactile sensations, a brain constrained by these realities. Fuck, we can't even know ourselves let alone the totality of existence.

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I was pointing out only your specific explanation, not necessarily your true perception of the universe. That is, in your post that I referred to, the specific language you used resembled religious devotion; take it as a sort of sarcastic poke, I suppose, rather than my honest belief that you "worship" the universe.

Originally posted by Arwon

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You're projecting the idea that, because some people need to find higher meaning and purpose and something to worship, we all do. Which isn't true. You say that because some people believe in this omnipotent being and worship it, everyone must believe in something huge and worship something. It's another tired iteration of "we killed God and worship Science/Ourselves instead". Fuck that right off. Next I expect you'll whip out that hoary old chestnut about "not beliving in God is an act of faith as much as believing in God is", if you haven't already.

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I think you're totally misinterpreting my point of view. I've tried to make it quite clear that any person could still attain my perception of Heaven according to my perception of God, whether that person is an atheist or a Wiccan or a Satanist or...well, maybe not a Satanist, but that's another thread altogether. What's important is not the belief system, but the moral character of the individual. Naturally, certain belief systems more easily allow for moral behavior, but few systems would absolutely condemn a particular adherent to Hell.

Originally posted by Arwon

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Now, I think there's a far better argument in the "atheism=different faith but still faith" vein when you're talking about nihilistic or absurdist viewpoints. There's probably a death-worship/will-to-self-annihilation aspect to this view, an argument we find comfort and solace in the thought of oblivion and of knocking down all pretensions as to humanity's "specialness". Or maybe just that we can face up to mortality and isolation in our limited perceptions--two essential facets of the human condition--without resorting to false Gods. Maybe we even take a little pride in this... but it's cold comfort I'm sure you'll agree. You could possibly even argue that destroying all false Gods is an act of worship in itself... faith in the void, faith in nothingness, etc.

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My own question remains, since the notion of a god pervades virtually every culture throughout history, how can a person be so dead certain that no god exists? Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm arguing on some basis like "all those people believed it, how could they be wrong?" because that's not what I'm going for at all. Rather, religion has been strong enough throughout history, and even into modern history when technology has advanced greatly, and still no proof against a god exists; yet, atheists behave as if they have absolute proof against a deity. I'm hardly asking you to prove that my god exists - as has been pointed out, that burden of proof would rest on me, not you - but the atheistic mindset appears to me to be centered on the idea that there is some sort of proof against god. And, so, I continue to question why any atheist would continue to be an atheist when no proof against a god exists, when agnosticism is essentially identical except that it recognizes that lack of proof and so makes no definitive statement.

Originally posted by Arwon

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Remember, the genesis of this whole tangent was you calling atheism "arrogance" because it assumes a knowability which Christianity doesn't.

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I called atheism arrogant not because it assumes any sort of knowability, but because it creates anti-god proof where none exists. In that way, I suppose there is a sort of implied knowability, but that is indirect.

Originally posted by Arwon

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Which is clearly absurd when you look at what I and many other atheists actually believe. Firstly, Christianity is arrogant in its own way. It ABSOLUTELY holds that humans are better than everything else around even if you throw in "Except for God". It's all about "take dominion" because it was all created for YOU. It's God's gift to YOU. How is that not an arrogant and egocentric view? Even if you make yourself subservient to an abstract outside agent, you're still constructing a heirarchy that puts you above everything else and assumes value and meaning for humanity.

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You and I can recognize, every day of our lives, that we demonstrate a definite dominion over animals. It is not blind arrogance, but a combination of clear observation and, if you turn to the Bible, then the Word of God. But, even dropping the latter, I do not claim blind superiority out of arrogance, but because mankind is obviously the overpower. It's like an army general remarking that he is above any captain or private or whatever - there is no arrogance, just simple recognition of reality.

Originally posted by Silvershield

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Originally posted by Arwon

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Remember, the genesis of this whole tangent was you calling atheism "arrogance" because it assumes a knowability which Christianity doesn't.

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I called Christainity arrogant not because it assumes any sort of knowability, but because it creates pro-god proof where none exists. In that way, I suppose there is a sort of implied knowability, but that is indirect.

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Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny

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I called Christainity arrogant not because it assumes any sort of knowability, but because it creates pro-god proof where none exists. In that way, I suppose there is a sort of implied knowability, but that is indirect.

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My own question remains, since the notion of a god pervades virtually every culture throughout history

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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins

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Given that most atheists try to be rational about the way things are (or they wouldn't be atheists), I'd have to say that your view of atheism / agnosticism is skewed. How WOULD one go about proving there was no God? You'd have to reach across the fabric of time and space and whatever else is out there, tear it apart, look through the other side and see that no one was there. That is far beyond any thing we know or even understand.

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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins

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The point is not to disprove anything, it is being unsatisfied with faith. I don't find faith reassuring in the least bit, in fact it makes me uneasy.

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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins

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I've often thought that the notion of God or gods was created by a genius before his/her time to control people. I say this b/c in early times religion almost always seems to be intertwined with government. Also, nearly every religion tells us to fear God, which could by association imply that you must fear the government.

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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins

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As I see it, agnostics and atheists are essentially the same, but agnostics have a hard time crossing over to the side, and saying with a firm mind that there is no God as most religions understand God. But that does not change the fact that both mindsets are the product of [I think] reasonable skepticism about traditional theistic ideas. When I was younger I used to tell people I was an agnostic b/c I didn't want to mention the word ATHEIST to anyone. If you say "atheist" in America it almost has the connotation of being a criminal or a monster. Criminality of free thought. When I continued on to high school I had a resurgence of faith due to my circumstances, being raised Catholic and going to a Catholic school. But upon going to college I fell back into old ways and became skeptical again.

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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins

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You pose the question of why religion has been so strong all these years. To you my answer is simply this: it is easy to be a free thinker in your own mind. But then you realize you might worry or frighten or even anger and alienate your family or peers if they were to know your true thoughts. The social constraints are very powerful and you worry so much about offending people you love. I would have to guess there are many atheists/agnostics who feel the way they do and never make a peep about it. I have no problem going to church just to make my family happy once or twice a year.

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