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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Atheism versus Religion |
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Silvershield   580                   Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Just to address what I had originally intended to address...
I am firmly of the opinion that, by and large, atheism is an extremely arrogant philosophy. Certainly, if you think there is insufficient evidence for God, don't believe in Him. But don't go so far as to say that you are dead certain that no possibility for any sort of Creator exists. Agnosticism is the way to go if you just can't bring yourself to subscribe to a religion, but straight atheism is an example of the human creature thinking so much of himself that he won't even allow the possibility of a God, even though no evidence disproving God has ever been presented. |
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Jomb Deddorokku   Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Although I cant DISPROVE with 100% accuracy that no "God" exists, the likely-hood looks very low, probably below 10% chance. But when reasoning things out, you dont try to prove a negative, you try to prove a positive. So I'd look for signs of God to prove it exists. God has'nt spoken to me and I have'nt seen God, so I can rule out my own senses. I have'nt seen any photographic or video evidence of God's existence. Considering that he is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing, this is very baffling. You'd think he'd simply communicate with people and tell them what he wants or why he made them, but he does'nt do that so i consider that circumstantial evidence of his non-existence. Maybe he died? But that would contradict him being all-powerful. Why would there only be one god? Would'nt he get lonely and create a second god? Being all-powerful that would appear to be something he'd be capable of. Being all-powerful and all-knowing, why would'nt he just create the world perfectly at day 1, eliminating the need for evolution? Too much does'nt add-up with the concept of God.
It's much simpler to see the writing on the wall if you take a particular religion as opposed to the generic concept of a "God", most all religions contradict each other, so we know for a fact that most of them have to be wrong, though this still leaves the possibility that one is actually true. But taking any particular religion and comparing its version of history with the facts we have available shows us that either our facts are wrong or the religion is incorrect. The only religion which makes sense is that a being or beings which we have no concept of, and have idea why they did it, created life and/or the universe. Then he (they) vanished. Either they died or just went somewhere else. This is effectively the same as Atheism for all intents and purposes because you cant worship being or beings you have no information about at all. (edit - as an aside, I also cant disprove that a giant pink elephant lives in the center of the Earth and is in control of the weather, but that does'nt mean I should believe it.) (edited by Jomb on 10-18-06 07:12 PM) (edited by Jomb on 10-18-06 09:05 PM) |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| "Too much does'nt add-up with the concept of God. "
Or maybe your current concept of God (or life) is flawed and therefore leads you to be unable to believe in Him. And not every religion believes in only 1 God. Plus, in actual fact many religions have a very similar concept of God, salvation, heaven/hell etc. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield I've never met a true atheist in my life, there are very few people who are absolutely atheistic. My reason is simple of why I don't believe in a god, any god, or even the possibility of a god. There is no proof of a god. Most religious people seem to get everything mixed up, they say that I have to show there isn't a god, that I should have to prove to them that there is no god, and there isn't the possibility of a god. They make the claim that a god/creator exists, they can't supply proof, so why should I believe in it? Arrogant? Not really, I see what I see and I accept that I might be wrong. I'm not going to believe there is something greater than me just because I exist, there is a top, and while I doubt we're it, I think we're on the road to the top. What's wrong with me not wanting to bow down to the sky and humble myself before a superior being? I wouldn't even do that if one existed. I think the prime reason why there are "fights" about Atheism vs. Religion is because some atheists are really loud and don't know when to shut the hell up. One of the things about being atheist is that you have nothing to push onto other people, so why bitch about them praying to the sky and humbling themselves to an unknown element? |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| I call atheists arrogant because, while any person who subscribes to a belief system that includes some Higher Power necessarily understands that humans are not The Best There Is, any atheist absolutely sees the world in that way. An atheist says that we as human beings are the utmost, the paragon, the absolute kings of this Earth and beyond, while even an agnostic recognizes that, while insufficient proof exists in both directions, humanity is not at the definite top (but possibly could be).
And any religious person that urges an atheist to provide proof that God is fake is going about things all wrong. Proof should never have entered the discussion in the first place; without simple faith, none of us have anything to go by. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| So... you generalize atheists?
What about those that believe in intelligent life somewhere else in the universe? Hell, I'm damn sure we're the kings of the solar system at least. I don't see any other planet sending out space probes. Calling the acceptance that the world is as we see it arrogance just seems... odd to me. |
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Sin Dogan 860  Uoodo Original Blend Armored Trooper Votoms Canned Coffee! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6283 days Last view: 6282 days |
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| I myself am quite religious and link many of my, albeit 'universally justifiable', views of fairness and preservation of life linked to my Islamic faith. In response to violent figures in Islam, I always say that as a Muslim, I believe(worship) only in God.
I don't care what religion other people are and I believe wholeheartedly that people should exercise their free thinking in order to decide what they truly believe in rather than following other people. I am not singling out any group in particular but it just annoys me to no end how people say they are of one group but do not exp I also think it's funny when people say that religion is a drain on human progress. When you look at the argument, it's due to the notion that religion tears people away from 'real' knowledge and moves them towards fanaticism and violence to protect their beliefs. Such groups don't have to have a religious affiliation to yield detrimental results. Even in Atheism there are those who create different groups within it while others just don't believe in anything and sometimes choose to create groups from that. I have no problem with Atheists or anyone else who believes in something different from me. I don't think God does either. There's a reason for everything. As long as they don't harm people of course. |
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JDavis Nintendo Fanboy Local Mod Affected by 'The Golden Power' +  Since: 11-17-05 From: Ada, OK, USA Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Normally I would stay out of this discussion entirely... But the way the title and some of the posts I glanced at are worded makes me feel a need to.
The way I see it, atheism IS a religion. That is, viewing "religion" as one's set of spiritual beliefs. Atheists believe that God/gods/deities do not exist. A belief that something doesn't exist is still a belief. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Pvt. PrinnyNot necessarily. I generalize the atheist point of view that I find to be most pervasive, nothing more. Originally posted by Pvt. PrinnyI don't think I've ever heard an atheist preface his profession of faith (or, appropriately, lack of faith) by pointing out that he believes in some "higher power" in the form of another mortal species that is distinct from humanity. Virtually without exception, the sentiment more closely resembles, "We're humans, we're at the top, we're all there is, and that's that." The idea of an alien race has never come up in my experience. Originally posted by Pvt. PrinnyAcceptance that the world is as we see it is agnosticism. After all, no proof inherently exists in our world that discounts the idea of a higher power - in fact, many phenomena in the world might even encourage the belief in a deity - and so an atheist goes that extra step by concluding, on his own, that there is no God. An agnostic views no disproof of God in our world, and so does not imagine any such disproof to exist; similarly, he views no proof of God in our world, and so does not imagine it. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield OOOOOH NO HE DIDN'T. I'm a convinced atheist. Watch this: We're basically comically inconsequential little specks on a tiny blue-green orb in an incomprehensibly huge and indifferent universe. We managed to eke out a brief existance. But only in a narrow band of temperatures, within a few-miles of altitude and thus air pressure, within a specific mixture of gasses, on one planet, which will one day be subsumed in the nuclear fire of a dying star. We are alone and isolated. We can't even travel to other little orbs and make friends because the very LAWS OF PHYSICS and our own limited life-spans make it impossible. This universe is not designed for us. We matter not a jot, and it is the height of hubris to invent some magical man in the sky who says we're special enough to preserve. Beyond not mattering, we're actually scum. Within this preposterously tiny environment we manage to survive in, we still can't make things work. Within these limited square-kilometres of oxygen and nitrogen (we can't even survive more than a few dozen metres under water), we kill each other over nothing, we treat each other with callous indifference, we delude ourselves into thinking we are smart and in control. We go mad with isolation and loneliness, grasping in the dark for a brief respite and maybe the chance to spawn and perpetuate the species. We're destroying our enviromment--shitting where we eat--and we're too stupid to save ourselves. And STILL we insist that a magical man in the sky has some special reward for us in spite of our manifest idiocies and destructive tendencies. Bollocks to that. Seriously, have you never heard of existentialism or post-modernism? (edited by Arwon on 10-19-06 03:14 AM) |
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JDavis Nintendo Fanboy Local Mod Affected by 'The Golden Power' + Since: 11-17-05 From: Ada, OK, USA Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I seriously don't know where you're coming from on this, Silvershield. I've never known a single athiest with an elitist view of humanity. In fact, if I were to make a generalization, I'd say most of them have fairly low opinions of humanity.
Sure, you can infer from their belief in no dieties or related spritual beings exist that humans are on the top of the list... But I think a proper analogy of the viewpoint would be if somebody had a group of people take a poop in a cup, and then ranked the poop by smell, the poop that smelled the best... Is still poop. And that's us. We're just the best smelling poop. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Well to be fair there are certainly atheistic doctrines that hold up man to be perfectable or te centre of everything or both. I just don't think anyone's really a positivist or a marxist any more. | |||
MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Perhaps my thread title was a bit misleading. I should have titled it "Atheism vs. Theism." And this is because I didn't want the argument to be about institutionalized religion. In addition, as I tried to elaborate in my first post, I don't think evolution is a necessary justification to be atheistic. Rather, if one were to think rationally about his/her everyday experiences, some things appear not to add up about the existence of a God or gods.
The first is the lack of everyday (or even lifetime) interaction with higher beings. How many of you have had an experience that you would say was direct interaction with a higher being? And if you say, "well maybe this being interacts but in a way we cannot understand," take a step back and analyze how foolish it sounds. That is not to say the behavior is absolutely foolish, but, as Dawkin's book title states, it does seem a bit delusional. I myself have a hard time coming to a conclusion that I myself am an atheist, simply b/c there is that nagging thought in the back of my brain: "what if... what if I'm wrong and someone is watching me." It's enough to make you afraid to make up your mind. Perhaps this is because i was raised in a theistic environment. I myself have had one experience in my whole life that would cause me to question the atheistic view, and even that is dubious as I have a hard time recollecting the exact details. For reference, this is what happened: I was invited to go to a Jehova's witness meeting, and being the nice person I was decided to take them up on it. I was a fairly faithful catholic at the time, and was uneasy going to a meeting of a group widely considered to be a cult. As I was taking a shower before going to said meeting, I was a bit nervous and before stepping into the shower I stepped on the toe of my sock of my other foot and lifted the foot with the sock on it upwards. This usually just pulls the sock off but in this case I seem to clearly recall it tearing the sock if not in two, then nearly in two. This was a minor nuisance, but as I was in the shower I began to think about how in the world of Christianity there is a world of fraction (protestantism) and a world of unity, and how protestantism has fractured the Church as a whole. So all I could think about was how one would possibly bring them back together. And this thought ran through my mind over and over again until I felt almost as in a trance or lucid state. As I stepped out of the shower I discovered that both my socks were whole again. I was astonished that the sock had no outward signs of damage. Now this sounds remarkable, until you consider the following: 1. perhaps there is something in the brain that triggers hallucinations associated with theistic thinking. 2. rationally speaking, I could have experienced a form of hysteria or mismatching of memories similar to deja vu, which happens even when the brain is not stressed out. 3. My brother used the same shower at the time, and it is possible I had confused a pair of socks of his with ones that I thought I had ripped. As I said, the details get fuzzy with time but I was very shocked at the time. 4. Even if this is a miracle, who is to say that the source of the phenomenon was something other than myself? Perhaps thestic mind patterns can trigger something like telekinesis. I hope you don't think this sounds arrogant, b/c if it were true, then it would mean everyone was capable of a miracle, hypothetically. And if it sounds arrogant for the human race as a whole, consider that there is a man in history who is said to have walked on water and turned water into wine. All those events were in the context of theistic thought, and it was only later he was elevated to god status by religious councils. i.e. if you believe Jesus did the things he is said to have done, it is not such a stretch to believe other humans COULD be capable of such things in the proper mindset. 5. I did not witness the coming together of the socks, if it did happen at all. That which I cannot see leads me to doubt. But I am not trying to attract attention to this experience of mine, and would rather focus on the second thing that does not add up - scarcity of life in the universe. In the early days of recorded history it seems you could go just about anywhere and see more life, especially human life. Now we are at a point where we are looking very hard and can't find ANY. If there is a God, that would lead you to a few different conclusions: 1. He wants us to stay here (the sandbox is big enough, go play in it, kid) or 2. He wants us to go forth and expand his life creation into the lifeless galaxy, or 3. There are other forms of life or other humans out there to meet Regardless of what conclusion you arrive at, space is a scary, vast place to colonize. You can't just sail a ship across the sea and begin building a city at this stage of technological advancement. The main point of contention in atheism vs. theism seems to be what to focus on in creation. Atheists seem to focus on how, and theists seem to focus on the big WHY. Why do we exist is a hard question to answer, and it seems that the notion of God is a placeholder, imo. Atheists either think of life as a singularity, or something that has not been fully revealed to us yet and is not worth conjecturing. But imagine if scientists answered the question of why magnets attract and repel with "God is moving them with his hand."? To me, it seems natural to want to answer such a big question as "why do we exist?" with a placeholder, but it doesn't seem to be scientific. And yes, there is a fundamental difference between faith and science, my point is that faith seems to be a nonproductive approach to finding an answer. In other words, how can you not be bothered that faith provides no means of finding real answers? |
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Young Guru Snifit  Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6285 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Just curious, but what do you guys here that are Atheist think of Pascal's Wager. It's not a proof for the existance of God but I've never really discussed it with an Atheist and whether or not they would think it has any merit. | |||
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| When you have multiple religions claiming they're the one true faith and the only way to be saved, Pascal's Wager becomes far less simple--what if the Hindus are right?
Moreover, if anyone's believing in God just to fucking hedge their bets... well that's a bit cynical and not real faith and not likely to be rewarded now, is it? The Christian who falls back on Pascal's Wager is essentially saying they only believe in God out of fear and/or self-interest and/or opportunism. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon 
Originally posted by ArwonSo, you've replaced an old bearded man in the sky with apparent worship of the universe itself. You seem to prostrate yourself before the notion of our great, all-encompassing, all-powerful universe, and speak of it in just the self-deprecating manner that a religious person would use when praising God. Is not such veneration of the natural world practically an example of religion in itself? In any case, regardless of how it's framed, an atheistic philosophy states that, even though our world and our universe are unimaginably complex and many of the phenomena we witness are absolutely beyond our understanding, we humans still can understand it. Maybe not with modern technology, or modern philosophy, or any other modern tool, but that capacity still exists simply because the universe is nothing special. It is the same collection of unbreakable natural rules that exist on Earth, only on a much grander scale. An atheist insists that we as humans are essentially equivalent to our universe, in the sense that both operate on a set of arbitrary laws constructed by nature and perhaps by chance. The reason religion comes across as such utter nonsense to many people is that it is inherently illogical, if you consider it from the perspective of the scientific method or a similar mindset. Our God - well, the Christian God, because that's the God I'll be speaking of for the moment - essentially demands, scripturally and traditionally, that we blindly accept his existence. Religious logic essentially states that, by His very nature, God will not simply provide some miraculous sign so that all of humanity will accept Him and believe in Him. You can write that off to "God works in mysterious ways" - that's usually enough for me - or you can dig deeper and realize that, assuming God works on a system of laws and logic that we humans can fathom (which He pretty much doesn't, if you ask me or most other Christians), then why would He want to just come down in a flash of smoke and light and convince everyone that He is real? His gift of heaven is for those people who take the leap of faith and believe in Him (or simply for people who are good, depending on which particular sect you prefer), not just for the masses; He created humanity and loves each of His individual creations, but His guidelines for salvation are clearly set forth in the Bible and in other sources. Christianity is a religion that anyone can join, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't join is entitled to the same "perks" just because they're human. Regarding Pascal's Wager...yeah, it's inherently flawed. But I bring it up because I was utterly stunned when one of my teachers cited it as a defensible proof of God. He is an intelligent, knowledgeable religion teacher, but he absolutely forgot to take notice of the fact that the wager assumes that the Christian God is the only possible god. And, so, the entire class was nodding along and just absorbing his every word. I wanted to raise my hand and call him on it, but I'm kinda shy...  |
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Young Guru Snifit Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6285 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon As I see it, Pascal's Wager has no relation to religion, just whether or not you believe in a god figure. I wholely agree with you that it is a terrible backbone for following a faith, I was just wanting to know what some people who do not believe in God think of it. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6291 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Young GuruBut, even if it just refers to any deity rather than a Christian one, it assumes that whatever god exists will reward those who believe in him. And there is no evidence for that. For all we know, the "real" god wants us not to believe in him, and that's why he has not made himself more overtly apparent; any who believe in him shall be punished, perhaps. |
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JDavis Nintendo Fanboy Local Mod Affected by 'The Golden Power' + Since: 11-17-05 From: Ada, OK, USA Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| Silvershield, it seems to me that you're stuck on the idea of worshiping a higher power... Atheists worshiping humans or worshiping aliens or worshiping the universe... When the simple fact is, atheists don't worship ANYTHING. To them, there is NO higher power. Everything's the same power. We are simply the best smelling poop, aliens (if they exist) are also poop (possibly better smelling, but still poop), and the universe is just the giant toilet that we all float around in.
Being agnostic, I can assure you that we humans are perfectly capable of getting along (and acting morally, for that matter) without having to put something up on a pedestal. |
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Young Guru Snifit Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6285 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| People that accept Pascal's Wager and believe in a higher being just in case it doesn't mean that they will worship that god. As far as I know the purpose of the wager is to cause the person to live a moral life, that's what the cost of the wager is. It says nothing about worshiping a diety, just that the diety wants you to live a moral life.
JDavis, I do think that many people are capable of acting morally without the necessity of religion or believing in God but I also see a lot of people in the world who don't know how to act morally. I like to believe in the general moral goodness of all humans, but from what I see from those who can leverage power over others there seems to be very little human decensy at all. Ahh, I'm so jaded and I hate that. |
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