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03-29-24 12:36 AM
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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Suicide Vs. Martyrdom New poll | |
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Theprankster157

Red Paragoomba








Since: 03-18-06
From: United States

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Posted on 10-15-06 11:15 PM Link | Quote
I was talking to my friend today, and she has to write a paper in her religion class about martyrdom. I said "The only difference between Martyrdom and suicide is press coverage" And we are now in a huge debate on the Subject. She thinks martyrdom is way different than suicide, because suicide is someone choosing to kill themselves and martyrdom is someone who dies because they stood up for what they believed.

I feel that suicide and martyrdom should be the same thing because they are both dieing for reasons they both find value in. How is the martyr who is being killed cause he oh lets say stood up for the christian belief, different then someone who is told day after day by their peres to kill themselves just because they keep wearing "goth" clothes or they look "emo". They're not. They are EXACTLY the same folks. By the time they commit suicide they have already been persecuted by their peers to the point where they're completely dead on the inside that killing themselves is just an act of mercy than anything else.

Anybody have any opinions on the topic?
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

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Posted on 10-15-06 11:27 PM Link | Quote
I don't see how dying for a believe comes anywhere near killing yourself.

That's like comparing dying in a car accident and dying because of an earthquake.
Nebetsu

Mole








Since: 11-17-05
From: WarKoL

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Posted on 10-15-06 11:58 PM Link | Quote
Martyrdom is when someone else kills you for your beliefs. It's also a religious thing. You can't be "martyred" for being emo.

Suicide is when you kill yourself because you can't handle your current environment and can't think of another solution to change said environment.


I really don't see how they can be compared other than the fact that they both involve the certain party dying. In one instance you have a choice, the other, you don't. In the Martyr situation, you don't have a choice other than to give up. With Suicide, you have a choice to change your surroundings. Think of the homosexuals. They didn't just go around killing themselves (I'm sure some did, but that's not the point). The majority of homosexuals got together, spoke up and changed their environment to fit their needs. I'd also like to state that this is not a bad thing and it is much more prefurable than curling up and (literally) dying.
Rom Manic









Since: 12-18-05
From: Detroit, WHAT?!

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Posted on 10-16-06 12:01 AM Link | Quote
Kurt Cobain did not die for a religion. The millions of christian martyrs did not die for heroin. Martyrdom and Suicide are the same thing because a suicide is dying out of spite of everything, and being a martyr is dying for a faith you've lived your life to protect.
Young Guru

Snifit








Since: 11-18-05
From: Notre Dame, IN

Last post: 6254 days
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Posted on 10-16-06 10:20 AM Link | Quote
The difference between martyrdom and suicide is that a martyr does not want to die. A martyr wants to continue living so that they can continue their mission of preaching whatever they believe in but is not willing to compromise on that belief even if it means that someone will kill them. People who commit suicide choose to kill themselves. There are some people who desire more to be martyrs than to preach their message and their actions purposefully put them in situations where there is a greater chance of them being killed. I would say that is very close to suicide as opposed to someone who goes about preaching their message without seeking persecuters to kill them.
geeogree

Red Cheep-cheep


 





Since: 11-17-05

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Posted on 10-16-06 12:05 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Nebetsu
Martyrdom is when someone else kills you for your beliefs. It's also a religious thing. You can't be "martyred" for being emo.

Suicide is when you kill yourself because you can't handle your current environment and can't think of another solution to change said environment.




Hrm.... maybe this is the right answer. Considering the fact that the way the person is actually killed (self-inflicted vs being killed by someone else) makes those things different.
Crayola

Double stone axe








Since: 03-18-06
From: coeburn,VA

Last post: 6315 days
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Posted on 10-16-06 05:59 PM Link | Quote
As I see it both suicide and martyrdom are both choices.
And in both cases the person dieing is dieing for stupid reasons (unless its a suicide to end suffering like jumping out of a burning building).
And yes martyrdom is chosen people choose to be killed for the sake of their beliefs.
How they differ....suicide is a person killing himself........martyrs allow others to kill them....

So to decide if they were the same ask yourself this:

If someone says "renounce your faith or die", and you refuse; which is it? It is definatley martyrdom but is it also suicide?
Because if you know that an action you do will cause your death and do it anyways this is suicide.
What do yall think?
Glyphodon



 





Since: 11-18-05

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Posted on 10-16-06 06:17 PM Link | Quote
Now that's a good point. If you die for your beliefs, couldn't you have just as easily said, "no, I don't believe in that" and then lived for your beliefs? I mean, can you really do more for your cause dead than alive? Couldn't you go on to help people without dying? Is your pride and honor really more important than that?

I personally think you guys are too hard on suicidals. You do need some serious conviction to kill yourself, after all. Psychologically, humans and many other beings are set up to reject self-destruction. Natural selection, you know. I'm sure most suicidals are just unstable and don't really know what they want or what they're doing, but I bet some just honestly and thoroughly want to be dead.
Young Guru

Snifit








Since: 11-18-05
From: Notre Dame, IN

Last post: 6254 days
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Posted on 10-16-06 06:24 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Crayola
If someone says "renounce your faith or die", and you refuse; which is it? It is definatley martyrdom but is it also suicide?

I'd say it's suicide if you were actively doing things to make sure that you would be in that situation. If that was your ultimate goal, the glory of martyrdom and not actually trying to improve other people's situations then it would be suicide in my mind. But say you go down to a third world country and set up a religious orphanage and after 15 years of work a soldier stumbles in and asks you if you're christian and you say you are and he kills you then I'd say that's martyrdom because your intent was to help others not to be killed.
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

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Posted on 10-16-06 07:27 PM Link | Quote
The line between suicide and martyrdom could be blurred, I suppose. Imagine a hypothetical case in which a person kills himself because he is suffering from some terrible affliction. His death would bring attention to, and possibly motivate research regarding, that particular illness; the person would have committed suicide, but would become a martyr for the cause of increasing the publicity of that terrible disease.

The main idea is that a martyr's death will have greater repurcussions that just "this fella died because he believed in something." A martyr will motivate other people to act in response to his death, and in doing so will strengthen that cause which he advocated or represented.
Jomb

Deddorokku








Since: 12-03-05
From: purgatory

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Posted on 10-16-06 08:02 PM Link | Quote
Someone who commits suicide can also be a martyr, but it is not necessarily so. Have any of you seen the famous photo of the monk who set himself on fire in protest of China occupying Tibet? That was a suicide and a martyrdom in one. But the girl I went to school with who killed herself was not a martyr, she was just an escapist. Even if you die for a cause you still might not be a martyr if no one knows about it. If your death motivated no one, then in my book you still are'nt a martyr.
Crayola

Double stone axe








Since: 03-18-06
From: coeburn,VA

Last post: 6315 days
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Posted on 10-16-06 08:34 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jomb
Someone who commits suicide can also be a martyr, but it is not necessarily so. Have any of you seen the famous photo of the monk who set himself on fire in protest of China occupying Tibet? That was a suicide and a martyrdom in one. But the girl I went to school with who killed herself was not a martyr, she was just an escapist. Even if you die for a cause you still might not be a martyr if no one knows about it. If your death motivated no one, then in my book you still are'nt a martyr.



yes that photo was in my school textbook im not sure what i feel about it...

and I am sure that any suicide motivates anyone to some degree (unless no one finds out the person has done it)

oh and is this whole topic based around the title of the panic at the disco song "the only difference between martyrdom and suicide is press coverage"


(edited by Crayola on 10-16-06 07:36 PM)
(edited by Crayola on 10-17-06 07:37 AM)
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

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Posted on 10-17-06 11:01 AM Link | Quote
This is what they call a false dichotomy. Suicide and martyrdom are different categories of things that sometimes overlap but don't correlate 100%. Suicide is an action with no inherent meaning except that applied to it, martyrdom is an example of an applied meaning in the minds of other people. Suicide is objective, martyrdom is subjective.

Kudos on a very novel question, Topic Starter... we get so used to arguing the same things over and over again, a genuinely new thought and a new question to consider is quite refreshing.


(edited by Arwon on 10-17-06 10:03 AM)
rubixcuber

Mole








Since: 09-08-06
From: St. Louis, MO

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Posted on 10-17-06 12:25 PM Link | Quote
The definition of martyr is "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles."

Based on that, I don't see how being a martyr requires you to be killed by someone else. If you kill yourself you are still suffering death.

Just my two cents on the English language.
Theprankster157

Red Paragoomba








Since: 03-18-06
From: United States

Last post: 6267 days
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Posted on 11-05-06 07:22 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Arwon
This is what they call a false dichotomy. Suicide and martyrdom are different categories of things that sometimes overlap but don't correlate 100%. Suicide is an action with no inherent meaning except that applied to it, martyrdom is an example of an applied meaning in the minds of other people. Suicide is objective, martyrdom is subjective.

Kudos on a very novel question, Topic Starter... we get so used to arguing the same things over and over again, a genuinely new thought and a new question to consider is quite refreshing.


Thanks. I was just highly interested in what others had to say on the subject because it had never before crossed my mind that it was a topic of debate. I always took them as one in the same. It is interesting to see the outlook others have on the subject.
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