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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - North Korea's got Nukes.....and I care, why? |
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Alkis                  Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| The EU does have some nationalism barriers to overcome. An example is France's Front National party, which is pretty much like the Nazi party of Germany in the 1930s. Just look for "National Front" in Wikipedia and you'll see what I mean, specially the bottom links. They have killed people, blown up cars, and created mayhem. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES   Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The extreme right in France isn't a particularly good example of the EU nationalism issues. | |||
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| Why not? They prevented the EU constitution from being ratified in France. Renember that France was one of the founding members of the EU and provided a large amount of money and effort to create it. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Because you're bringing up the issue of nationalism. The radical right in France has a decent level of power under Le Pen. But we're looking ath the EUROPEAN UNION. A massive set of states that have their own loopy-loo problems. Slovakia's xenophobic nationalist crazies are left wingers. In Britain the BNP is whatever the fuck it is. Assessing radicalism as the sole blocker of ratification of documents within the EU is absolutely stupid.
The EU isn't going to fail due to an existentialist fear of a loss of culture. The sheer amount of numbers and facts are in favour of the EU becoming a major power broker across the world. |
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blackhole89 Moronic Thread Bodycount: 17 (since 2006-08-21 09:50 EST) F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 Since: 12-31-69 From: Dresden/SN/DE Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Koryo This might be a little late of a reply, but I still would like to point a few things out. The assumption that Putin is anywhere near close to an autocratic sovereign of Russia is highly fallacious. Just like Bush pretty much is a figurehead politician carried by a far mightier than they should be in a proper democracy petrol industry lobby and the party representing their interests (and before you even start, I am not trying to make this an "evil republicans vs. good democrats" thing. The Democrat party is hardly, if at all, better.), Putin is a figurehead politician carried by a party that holds far more old Soviet-time elites than would be healthy for it, certain parts of the mafia and a select lobby of government-friendly industries. Both could be removed at ease and in no time if they lost the support of their hardly to be called democratic backup system. While the whole "assassination of oppositionals in Russia omg" thing has been incredibly blown up to an absurd scale (the FSB supposedly poisoned Litvinenko with radioactive Polonium? Doesn't that seem slightly odd, if not grotesque, considering pretty much every larger secret service of the world is well in possession of toxic substances that cause instant death and decay within a few hours?), it is of course undisputable that the methods of the antidemocratic process differ in both countries. In Russia, an "unwanted" newspaper's owner typically will first be provided a rather profitable offer for selling it; if he refuses, he typically will be accused of some hard to prove or disprove financial crime or straight out shot using hired and entirely clueless lower-level organized criminality pawns. In the USA, something allegedly immoral from that person's early sexual life will be discovered by the respective other party's media, leading to loss of any political influence in the moralist country. Or a set of television preachers will declare him ungodly. The effect on a political opinion, still, is pretty much the same. The antidemocratic shift, too, goes in the same direction of giving those with money, wit and a certain amount of criminal intent a higher influence in the political process. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| One of the major issues with Russia is the breakdown of order in the criminal world. This whole issue makes it harder for us in the West (and anywhere, really) to monitory and assess the actions of the black worlds that have sprung up in the post-soviet sphere. Russia isn't a state only of Russians. Due to the multi-ethnic nature of the Russian Federation it makes killings of people opposed to the government's programs very difficult to sort out. You may criticize the government for one policy or its dealing here, but if you don't cover the story the way someone likes it you may run into an issue with an ethnic mafia - Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians, Russians, whatever there is - and get killed. The whole Anna Politkovskaya issue had a prelude in the street of Kyiv when a young journalist was beaten to death by ex-government thugs under the hire of Kuchma. The difference is that she attacked a whole list of issues and may have come foul of any number of groups. Litvenenko though was a loon who claimed that Romano Prodi was a KGB man that sheltered the would-be assassains of Karol Wotoya, amongst other things. His murder though is tragically bizarre in how it all has gone.
"Putin is a figurehead politician carried by a party that holds far more old Soviet-time elites than would be healthy for it, certain parts of the mafia and a select lobby of government-friendly industries. Both could be removed at ease and in no time if they lost the support of their hardly to be called democratic backup system. " I don't think it would be possible to do anything of that sort. As said earlier, the dingier facts of Russian governance aren't known to the world outside the "family" in the Kremlin. A party purge would be far too destabilising. To remove the old politburo boys would be to sacrifice those with experience. To kill off the industry lobby would be to further enfuriate the reeling oligarchs and the slowly growing noveau riche novii russkii, hardly an option available to Putin at this point. The mafia, though, could be done with painstakingly meticulous means. The issue of the Russian mob, in terms of the international order, are inseperable from every day life in the post-soviet sphere. The black markets that perestroika meant to kill were fuelled by the new globe and privatization. To cut out the mob in anyway would not be easy. It is simply not possible until the Russian state can be assertive towards internal economic woes that allow for the under world to operate so effectively. |
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| I think Putin has done a good job in preventing total chaos in post-soviet Russia.
At least Russia isn't in a civil war or anything major. Russia can take care of matters eventually. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Well, Putin is kind of building on the shoulders of Yeltsin and Gorbachev who were the ones that really prevented civil war. He has just managed to raise Russia's foreign profile. | |||
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blackhole89 Moronic Thread Bodycount: 17 (since 2006-08-21 09:50 EST) F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 Since: 12-31-69 From: Dresden/SN/DE Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| You do have a point there. Thing is, the problem Russia has is not a Putin problem, it is a typical Russian problem... the corruption and politically motivated criminality have been there ever since. It's just that in the Soviet age few oozed out, and before and after that mostly nobody cared. As you said, the main difference under Putin is that he is deliberately drawing foreign attention for whatever reason, and that Russia somehow managed to become matter of interest to western media. It's just questionable whether that kind of attention is capable of helping the situation in any way. | |||
Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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I hope we are all thoroughly convinced by now that Russia is non democratic. 
I don't see Russia democratizing in a hurry, but at least Russia is no longer influencing nations all around the world to accept a dictatorial "communist" government. Interestingly enough, Russia is selling quite a bit of oil to the European Union. This is going to put them in a position of power over the EU, especially as I can see the EU becoming a large economic power (in the sense that they will be a massive consumer block), but not a military power. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| They won't have the projection capability, but they ARE a military power. Combined, they're quite formidable. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| Those are almost mutually exclusive statements. Without projection capability, your military power is almost worthless. They have a couple hundred nuclear bombs, which is enough for a casual deterrent, but China and Russia each have more atomic bombs than all of the European Union combined. Their military hardware is technologically advanced, but poorly organized, distributed in a piecemeal fashion, and not present in nearly enough quantities to equip a large military. They have modern aircraft, but not in any great numbers. All in all, their military power is limited. Still, I doubt anyone would attack the EU on their own soil within the foreseeable future. What is likely to happen, though, is that something will happen elsewhere in the world, and the EU will be unable to project their power that far away. Also, Russia no longer needs military power over the EU. Oil gives them all the power they need. | |||
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| The EU economy is formidable, as their coin is even worth more than the dollar. It will soon surpass the British pound. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| And that's the measure of a super power, is it?
In truth, while the EU will have considerable economic power, that power will probably rest exclusively with their being a large consumer block. Countries like China and India will be the world's primary producers of goods and merchandise in the coming decades. The EU will have some power, in that they could tariff or otherwise restrict imports from China to the EU (cars, for example), but the EU will not be a world producer of industrial goods, or an exporter of energy. Economically powerful, to be sure, but not an economic super power. |
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Alkis Since: 12-28-06 From: Arletpolis < FA < Arletland Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc. were already rich and powerful before EU, now with EU, they're together and thus, more powerful. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| Please research things. I'm begging you. I'm getting down on my hands and knees in front of my computer right now.
Now that I'm back: Please take a look at this link. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html There is a lot of information on that website. You might want to book mark it for later use. But for now, take a look at that front page. GDP is not a perfect measure of wealth and economic power, but for our purposes today, and when comparing the most wealthy western nations, it works. The UK, France, Spain, etc were strong, when compared with most countries. Compared with the US and China, however, they fell behind. Even the entire EU's GDP is about the same as Americas. However, America's GDP is under the control of one single government, which makes it a stronger economic force than the EU. The EU's GDP is only that large on paper. That is the sum of all nations within the EU, who do not yet act as a cohesive unit. It is also interesting to consider that the US has a much lower population than the entire EU added together, which means that each individual American is more productive than each European. Once again, the EU looks good on paper, but is not yet what it might one day be. Edit: Also consider this. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html This chart of per capita GDP in purchasing power parity is from the same site. What this basically means is, if you take the total wealth of a country, and divided it by the number of people in the country, you would get the per capita GDP. In other words, if wealth was perfectly equally distributed in that country. The US is in 7th place, according to that chart (which will very slightly from year to year), and all 6 of the countries above the US have tiny economies over all in terms of GDP. But that's not the important thing we can glean from this chart. Scroll down a bit until you find the EU. You will find it in position number 31. A number of EU countries, such as Germany, the UK, and Italy, are above that on the chart, while most of the rest are below it. This means that most of the EU is not nearly as developed and wealthy as the Western and Northern European countries that we all think of when we think of EU economic power. The US is more homogeneous. I hope those poorer countries will be brought up to the level of Germany and the UK, but it is not likely to happen tomorrow. (edited by Koryo on 01-07-07 10:56 PM) |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| The EU is just taking baby steps right now. I imagine that after a few more years of Euroskepticism a bunch of parties slightly more supportive of ratification of all necessary treaties will come to power, bringing Europe to a single military command structure and a more powerful trade zone. That's when it becomes a pole power. I figure that "superpower" is going to be outmoded as the power of that title is going to be degraded by nuclear proliferation and more powerful trade blocs. | |||
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| So it may be, but its not happening right now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hoping the EU will fail just because they aren't the US. I would much rather see the EU eclipsing the US (though I doubt that would happen) then China eclipsing the US. Ideally, the US and EU could ally, as the world force for western style democracy, against the non democratic forces that will be rising soon or already have, such as China, Russia, Iran, terrorism, and possibly a socialist Latin American economic bloc. Still, I don't see any scenario in which the EU builds a military to rival the US or China (or even Russia). (edited by Koryo on 01-08-07 12:36 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| "A number of EU countries, such as Germany, the UK, and Italy, are above that on the chart, while most of the rest are below it. This means that most of the EU is not nearly as developed and wealthy as the Western and Northern European countries that we all think of when we think of EU economic power. The US is more homogeneous. I hope those poorer countries will be brought up to the level of Germany and the UK, but it is not likely to happen tomorrow."
I dunno, there could well be as much disparity between Sweden and Slovenia as Mississippi and Masachusetts, if you counted the latter separately. |
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Koryo Keese Since: 10-17-06 From: Michigan, USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| I will look into it and try to find some facts or statistics. By the way, why does no one here use the quote function? (edited by Koryo on 01-08-07 02:39 AM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - North Korea's got Nukes.....and I care, why? |
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