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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Sick of the US |
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Crayola Double stone axe                  Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6363 days Last view: 6326 days |
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| I have been living in the United States for over seventeen years. I live in a shitty country town in Virginia called Coeburn. Now in this town I have been witness to the tragedy that is America.
The “land of the brave home of the free” lies I have been fed since childhood now sicken me. Most of you will remember the idea of a man named Santa who brought gifts and goodwill to good little boys and girls. We all know now that this story is a lie. Now that I am older I can also see that the idea of a free America is also a lie. Everything that is represented in the constitution has been distorted by political parties. Where is our freedom of speech. Why can I not say what I want, Example I cannot go up to my teacher and say fuck you. Because the word fuck is deemed wrong and immoral. (Note please do not ban me from this board for using the word fuck it is merely an example). Was the idea of freedom of speech not meant to protect offensive words? Or has the state once again contorted the constitution to meet their own needs? Maybe I am in the wrong when I say this but when I hear the words freedom and speech, I think hey that means I can say what I want. But alas this is not the case. Separation from church and state, although I do not consider myself Christian I can see how it is important to Christians to spread their faith. This week the bible was handed out in the hallway at school. I complained about this but even my atheist friends showed no support in my complaint. Which is that separation of church and state should mean separation of church in state. I’m not saying that handing out bibles is wrong or that spreading the faith is wrong only that doing these actions at school is wrong. Let me explain my reasoning further, the school environment is a place of learning not a place of church, how are cults formed? Cults pray on the young and weak-minded. Now im not trying to relate the Christian faith to Cults, but you have to admit their recruiting methods are fairly the same. Now lets pretend a cult wanted to hand out their bible in our school do you think they would be able? When you see your friends take interest in an activity you wish to fit in so you do the same , this is basic sociology. To imitate ones friends, peer-pressure to do what they do to belong. Now when a young impressionable teen sees his friends picking up this bible he wishes to fit in so he does the same. Is this not wrong trying to convince others your beliefs in school? Maybe once again I am wrong. Now racism. There are many college scholarships that are given to minorities. Now I do not know if these are state supported or not but is this not racism? I mean they give the scholarships based on “grades and race” I am saying those three words over and over in my head but I cannot see how this is not racism. I forget the law but it makes certain amount of minorities having to be employed in a company. I really can see how this is meant to prevent racism, but this is an ill conceived law mostly because the law is racist. To prevent racism in the workplace what is necessary? Raciest laws I think not. The best way to prevent racism is education. Maybe I am wrong about that as well. Lets face it the idea of a Utopia is never going to happen but we have to at least try to change the world to make it better. Please give arguments or support to any of the statements above it would be appreciated. |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places   Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by CrayolaGo into a predominantly black neighborhood and shout "THE KKK WAS RIGHT" and see how far free speech gets you. Little hint: It won't end well. I think you're taking "freedom of speech" a little too literally.
I'm reasonably certain all of those scholarships are privately funded, in which case you basically have a non-government party deciding where their own money goes - nothing wrong with that. It's like donating to a Christian charity and refusing to donate to an Islamic one. |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite!   Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by Thexare This is not the point. The point is that the government won't go after him for what he says. What others do is irrelevant. |
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beneficii Broom Hatter Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6299 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Let us accept that I will be keeping a very close eye on this thread. | |||
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6363 days Last view: 6326 days |
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| When I said freedom of speech i meant legal freedom of speech, not what is morally correct. I understand that there are reactions from any form of speech, speaking, wrighting, arts, ect. Saying that “the KKK was right” is very immoral and goes against my beliefs, but I still want the right to say this or anything without fear of legal punishment of course the inhabitance of that neighborhood would probably beat me or curse me or who knows what else.
So if I created a fund for blond-haired, blue-eyed, male, Caucasians. You would think this to be a just scholarship? I do think people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their money. I’m just wondering if you think giving it to certain racial/religious groups and no one else is the right thing to do. |
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Cirvania Cyball I guess this is as close as Xkeeper will get to spell it right. :< Since: 11-17-05 From: The Island of Puerto Rico. Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I've gotten a little rusty on this... but here goes.
Let's break it down, shall we? Originally posted by CrayolaFreedom of speech is not, and has never been, absolute. It ends where the other individual's rights begin. Ergo, if you say "fuck you" to the teacher, she will most likely feel offended, and therefore freedom of speech doesn not protect you. Add to that the fact that you are a minor, and that you are bound by the specific rules of an institution that does not necessarily condone said behavior, and you would most likely end up suspended if not expelled. Originally posted by CrayolaAgain, separation of Church and state is not absolute; look at the Pledge of Allegiance: "One nation, under God, indivisible..." Or the US motto that appears on all currency: In God we Trust We will never be truly able to completely separate religion from state; seeing as this nation was formed precisely by people with Christian roots and beliefs. What it does cover, however, is the intromission of Church representatives or interests in political matters. Whether this still has any bearing or not, however, is a debate for another day. Originally posted by CrayolaPeople are free to choose their own way; just because the Bible was handed out in schools does not mean that they are obligated to accept Christianity or join the Church. Also, isn't Virginia part of the so-called "Bible Belt"? That might explain why the Church was free to hand out Bibles in schools; religion is still somewhat deeply instilled in many of the Southern states. Again, this is a debate for another day. Originally posted by CrayolaSaid scholarships are not merely given out because of race; the students must prove themselves academically and, in most cases, their family income must not exceed a certain amount. Concerning the minority employment law: This was created to ensure minorities a chance in the work force, "equal opportunity", so to speak. However, in a sense, there is some racism involved, as equal opportunities do not necessarily mean equal pay. Most minorities learn less wages than their white counterparts for the same labor, just like it still happens with women. I do agree with you on two points: Originally posted by Crayola Originally posted by CrayolaYou are right. There will never be any utopias, because the interests of the rich and powerful outweigh the interests of the common people in this fallen world. People are so obsessed with material well-being that they neglect their sense of compassion for the needy. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom  Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I don't agree with your separation of chuch and state view. If you don't wanna be submitted to the Christian faith, don't take a bible from the people in the halls. It's that simple. It's not like you're being held down and forced to read the bible. Common sense, people!
As for your views on racism, what you're pertaining to is actually called Affirmative Action. And yes, it's total bullshit. People should get into schools because their scores are the best regardless of race. EXAMPLE: If there are 1000 scholarships to be given out and 100 saved for minorities, what if the 991st white student has higher grades than one of the minorities? Shouldn't the white guy get the scholarship because his grades are higher? Not when it comes to affirmative action. Again: BULLSHIT! As for freedom of speech: schools have certain policies. You go to the school so you have to follow the rules. It's that simple. If the current place you're attending doesn't have a policy on speech, be my guest and swear all you want! It is your right, after all 
EDIT: Dude, Crayola, if you don't like this country, GET THE FUCK OUT! I'm certainly not going to make you stay (sorry mods for being a dick but sometimes it's necessary). (edited by Vyper on 10-08-06 08:08 PM) |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Crayola Whether or not I think it is the right thing to do is irrelevant. It is their money, they have the freedom to do what they wish with it. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6363 days Last view: 6326 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Oh i agree with you I know i need to quit bitching and leave. actually i have been planing to for 3 years, I wanna go to cannada not sure what their laws are all about. But as much as i want to leave faimly ties keep me here and i am not willing to leave them all behind. So I really wish to change america (impposible) instead of leaving it.But yes eventually i will leave i dont know where to but hopefully it will be better there. Originally posted by Thexare You are a US citizen your oppinion does matter. right? Originally posted by Vyper The thing is, most people lack this thing you call common sence. people are not free thinkers and are very easily influenced. allow people to choose on their own what is best for them instead of having the oppinions of others asserted onto them in the school environment. Handing out only christian bibles is biased in that no other religions are represented. Symbolizing that one is ok and the other isnt. people come to school to learn not to be pushed into religion. (edited by Crayola on 10-08-06 08:20 PM) (edited by Crayola on 10-08-06 08:40 PM) (edited by Crayola on 10-08-06 08:42 PM) |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey buddy, what the fuck do you think the founding fathers thought about when they drafted the constitution? They made allowances for people who wanted to change America. America's motto in your warped perception: "America: If you don't like it, get the fuck out!" That's crazy. Stop being such a dick. |
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I think alot of this is in reference to the popular "Love it or leave it" bumper stickers that you see more and more often.
Also: Windwaker is right in that we have things called votes. The only reason the powerful have power is because they can convince America's TRUE source of power (people who vote) that their way is the right way. If you leave, you only worsen what is, in your opinion, a problem because you leave the country with one less voter who thinks the way you do (which is the same as one MORE voter who thinks the opposite of you). Anyway the point is you accomplish nothing by leaving. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by ||bass Well, nothing for anyone else, anyway. |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6363 days Last view: 6326 days |
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| So i should stay here and try to change America rather than flee to a less suppresive nation.
Well i guess that is one option, But I have trouble gaining support to my views. Without money there is pretty much no way of changing America. So i really dont know what i should do. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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Originally posted by Crayola If blond-haired, blue-eyed male caucasians were an under-represented and historically improverished and disadvantaged group, then fine. But they're not, and they don't tend to, as a group, go to shittier schools, have more difficult upbringings, get lower marks even with equal intelligence to peers in other places, and so forth. There is affirmative action for all sorts of things based on percieved disadvantange, race is just the hair-trigger issue in the US because of its particular historical neurosis about the subject. Racial preference is an overrated bogeyman, but then, Americans often confuse Race issues with Class issues since there's a high correlation, and talking about Class is discouraged in America, so race usually makes a reasonable proxy. Even so, if you're going to bitch about racial preference, you had better also bitch about affirmative action for people from rural areas, or low-income backgrounds, or kids getting preferential treatment in their home states' systems, or for any number of other areas where affirmative action is used to attempt to level the playing field against percieved systemic inequalities of opportunity. It's all well and good to say everyone should be treated equally, but when you look at the VAST disparity between school standards and educational opportunities between different communities, people being held back because they've been born in the wrong town, family, state, whatever... it's simply not possible to sit back and say "judge by marks alone" because that not fair or equal either. Inequality of opportunity is everywhere. At any rate, the US education system, particularly with regards to entrance into higher education, is fucked in a much more fundamental way than just "minority scholarships" and blaming them is simply perverse. Look instead to things like legacy scholarships and so forth, the early entrance places, all the little tricks used to ensure that the privileged and wealthy stay that way by getting more places than they deserve on merit alone. Ask why the share of places at top universities going to the richest 20% has increased continuously for a couple of decades. (edited by Arwon on 10-08-06 11:42 PM) (edited by Arwon on 10-08-06 11:47 PM) (edited by Arwon on 10-09-06 03:23 AM) |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Two things, since they're all I feel qualified to speak on.
Originally posted by Ice Cirvante Yes. Yes it is. Originally posted by Crayola You do realize that freedom of speech is waived in schools, right? Same way as that whole search and seizure thing. Oh, and the completely obvious second amendment thing. Take a gun to school, see how they treat you. It's protected under the constitution, right? (I'd cite the actual case for the free speech waiver, but it's been 2 years and I've forgotten which one it is.) Basically, schools are allowed to waive probably a good 3/4 of the Bill of Rights. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by The US Constitution Note the emphasis. The Constitution has no authority over the rules set by your school, the actions of private individuals to spread their religion, or the descisions made by private scholarship funds or universities. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| That's not to say that they can, or should be able to, do anything, just that the constraints are less than those for the government. | |||
Dr_Death16   970 Since: 05-07-06 From: Iowa Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Is the government highly influenced by the Christian religion? Yes. Which is why certain "bad words" are not to be said, etc. However, the great makers of the country decided certain words were bad for us to say, and, therefore, we aren't to say them as children. As stupid as it is, if they're just words, then why use them unless you're looking for trouble at school. I really do not know how bibles were allowed to be handed out at school, but the learning institution always has been rather isolated from government and inside, the principal and faculty pretty much do whatever they decide is best for students. I'm sure if there were one member of a different religion, it would not have happened. However, as a child in school, you really can't complain about supressed rights just yet. You're not considered an adult by the government and your rights are going to be screwed with up until you do graduate from school. Trust me, after you leave high school, you'll get all the freedom you want; but don't blame the government for everything that goes on in all of these learning institutions where they're so concerned with what they think is good for a kid to learn that they infringe on rights. | |||
Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Welcome to the Glass Prison, where almost everything is just out of reach. Enjoy your stay 
This is the way the world works. Capitalism is the way to freedom, and fuck those who couldn't make the gauntlet. Originally posted by Dr_Death16 America was founded by the most traditionalist, power hungry men and the most beautiful women. From there, things just went on a downhill. Originally posted by Crayola Perhaps because the very meaning of the word means something derogatory? Originally posted by Crayola I don't think it's wrong in any example. But others have opposite ideas (See above). Originally posted by Crayola Nothing but tolerance. It's the way you're brought up and the world you live in that makes you a racist. For example, someone who lives for a period of time in a place where people make racist jokes will probably become racist. Someone who grows up with a grudge against a black person will inevitably become racist against a black. And last but not least, a country that has reason to fear some arabs will naturally become prejudiced against ALL arabs. Originally posted by Crayola Meaning of life, perhaps? Originally posted by Crayola Perhaps. If it is, then I think scholarships devoted to athletes only are just, don't you think? |
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Crayola Double stone axe Since: 03-18-06 From: coeburn,VA Last post: 6363 days Last view: 6326 days |
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Originally posted by Rom Manic Athleticism and Race are two very different subjects. We can help if we are athletic or not, but we cannot choose our race. Originally posted by Rom Manic I know it has a bad meaning , the words meaning is not the point. The need for the right to use this or any other word is. To condone censorship of/over anyone is limiting a persons freedom. (edited by Crayola on 10-10-06 07:39 PM) |
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