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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - American Dream |
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Tommathy                  Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| American Dream is dead via marketplace.org | |||
Jomb Deddorokku   Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| I think that, although it is possible to improve your status in this country, the game is very skewed against you if you dont already have money in your family. If you come from money, your chances of maintaining that level of wealth are very good, even if you are unmotivated and/or stupid. But if you come from poverty, your chances of one day being rich are very very small, no matter how hard you work.
I know guys who are dumb as hell, but were born rich. They got bought into good schools/jobs that much smarter but poorer guys were excluded from. On the other hand I grew up with a guy who was rather intelligent and did well in school, but his family made just enough money to prevent him from getting any kind of college assistance, but not enough money to realistically put him through school. |
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Arwon Bazu  Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| The Economist newspaper has been on about this repeatedly for a few years, I've read many an article from them that basically say that the welfare states of northern and western Europe are actually more meritocratic than the US, there's far more social mobility, especially for the poor.
More specifically, middle class mobility is similar everywhere, but at the bottom the Nordic countries and to a lesser extent Britain and others have far greater mobility.
Essentially the difference seems to be the education systems, both their quality and evenness. You need something approximating equality of opportunity in terms of school quality, and ability to go to university if you're smart, not just if you can pay. For the first bit, for me, the single biggest problem is that schools get financed based on local property taxes in most parts of America. That's just madness and it leads to a massively varying quality of education. For the second bit, meritocracy in higher education, it seems that in the last 30 years the place at top universities have been increasingly going to the richest quintile, for a variety of reasons to do with things like places for alumni offspring and the ability of richer parents to be able to help their kids work the application system better. (edited by Arwon on 08-31-06 10:40 PM) |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6433 days Last view: 6433 days |
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| The rich have very little interest in seeing the poor do well. Especially if they can keep hiring undocumented illegal workers. It seems to me that we are reaching a population bubble that is going to burst in the next 50 years. There will just be so many people and just not enough of the pie to go around. | |||
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TransAMMullet76 Newcomer  Since: 09-04-06 From: Georgai Last post: 6463 days Last view: 6463 days |
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| thats stupid anyone can wrok hard and get a good job if u really want most ppl r being lazy and want handouts so they dont have to work its just being lazy | |||
drjayphd Torosu OW! BURNY!  Since: 11-18-05 From: CT Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by TransAMMullet76 13, huh? Checked your profile. Ever had a job? Ever tried to get one? Lose one? Had to pay for anything essential (food, clothing, shelter, the like)? Been in debt? Had to figure out just how you'd pay whatever bills and such you have? Come back in about five years when you've been in any position to experience life. |
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Also, did you even read the article?
Or are you just saying that the statistics just demonstrate that americans are oddly lazy? |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by TransAMMullet76
Is it really worth arguing with him? At any rate, I'm going to do the best thing I can do: Respectfully bow out of this discussion due to my lack of insight into the matter. |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by TransAMMullet76 hahahaha wow we finally found someone stupider than geeogree  |
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Zer0wned Koopa Since: 12-09-05 From: Torrance, ca Last post: 6453 days Last view: 6453 days |
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| I have no college education, didn't even finish high school "correctly", two years later I make $12 an hour, and am using a good amount of my free time developing higher paying skills. I've worked hard, well, and honestly, it pays off every damned raise I've gotten these last two and a half years.
I grew up in a city whose per capita crime rate (as of 2002) is roughly double that of Compton. The public school system within that city was where I received about 15% of my education relevant to pretty much anything I've ever done. I was born being raised on welfare and drug money, which then went to welfare when my dad was jailed for three years, then someone else's lower-middle class money (none of which went toward my education) after that. I dropped(tested) out when I was 16 because I had no motivation to try, seeing as how the education system was such shit, and I obviously wasn't going to college anyway. Spoiler: That and my mom pretty much promised me I was going to be unwelcome as an inhabitant when I turned 18.
(don't tell me all the ~wonderful~ things about scholarships, I didn't qualify for anything because by then my family had a good income, I'm white, male, and the only way to get it through physical prowess was to be an outstanding omfg athelete, anything else was too niche for me to be able to find out about it). Clubs were out of the question because everyone seemed to make a point of keeping me out of them since I moved a lot. Anyway, conclusion and tl;dr version: Poor people whine and are generally unmotivated to develop themselves. This guy listened to the whining, has a very high standard of living and probably knows mostly people at his income range with money in the family. I'm no "rah rah USA!!" patriot, but on this subject I can damned well say that the american dream is still there. Everyone I see that works hard, works smartly, and thinks ahead reaps the benefits. And since I detect a possible rebuting reply regarding the illegal alien thing, refer to attributes 2 and 3 of sentence 2 in this paragraph. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| That's purely anecdotal evidence, man, and the plural of anecdote is not data.
The statistics are right there in black and white--people at the bottom of the income scale in America, in the aggregate, have less social mobility than in many other countries, because a number of things. Most notable among these is the poor quality of education, and the lack of access to high quality further education. In short, things are stacked against them more than elsewhere. In a land that calls itself the land of opportunity, many people in fact have less opportunity to advance in life than people in the same position in Britain or Sweden. The point isn't that "some people get ahead anyway" because of course they do, and this occurs in all rich countries. In America seemingly less people at the bottom do get ahead, and it's harder even if you do work hard, and more people at the bottom end would have their hard work rewarded more if certain things changed. And if this occurred, America would be more of the meritocracy it actually prides itself on being. (edited by Arwon on 09-05-06 07:04 AM) |
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Zer0wned Koopa Since: 12-09-05 From: Torrance, ca Last post: 6453 days Last view: 6453 days |
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| The statistics are right where prey tell? I haven't seen a single link to any statistics, graphs, studies, etc. Just people talking and pulling numbers seemingly out of nowhere.
And why are we even debating something that isn't even solidly defined? The phrase "The American Dream" is tossed around and reinterpereted so much that it can't really be defined anymore, really. It's one of those questions you ask first graders to get "cute" answers. In the meantime you have people on the lower quartile of the income range complaining that they don't have what middle class does, even though they can afford to rent a place themself! Regardless of it being kind of crummy. If you have: -Property (rented even, especially with those real estate hoarding greedy fuckers) and utilities -Consistant food supply -Decent clothing -The means to clean yourself and your items, and maintain health -Some personal effects or other extras -and you don't have to work unreasonably hard in order to obtain these things Then you're not too bad off. However far above and beyond this you think that the standard for the american dream is, that's up to you. You can be below the federal poverty level and still have these things Even then, no one ever said it was an american exclusive dream, or a dream embodied by america, it could very well just be a dream that is in america, I see nothing stating otherwise. Point I'm making is being "poor" by todays standards is nowhere neeeaaarly as bad as being poor was back when the term was first coined. So who cares if you're not middle class if today's lower class is the middle class of thirty years ago (property holdings excluded)? |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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This, which I already posted, from the Economist:
One major aspect of the American dream is meritocracy. A key, bedrock element, given America's definition of itself in opposition to the class-based systems of the old world. The idea is that who you are shouldn't matter in terms of what you can achieve. Stories like the Horatio Algers. So I'm using the question of meritocracy as the major dimension of analysis here. Meritocracy means that what your parents earn and what social class they're in should not matter in terms of your opportunities. The thing with meritocracy, though, is it requires vigilance and clever policy to actually achieve, otherwise the wealthy and powerful tend to protect and advantage their own. And when you look at the relationship of parental and offpsring income, clearly where you're born into the system does matter. This is not a debate about relative poverty (although some corners of the Appalachians are well below what Americans would consider subsistance), it's a debate about social mobility and meritocracy and equality of opportunity. It's not about whether the people in the lowest quintile have basic essentials, it's about whether they have things like decent educational opportunities and as much hope of climbing the ladder of opportunity and being successful as the middle or upper classes. Anything less than this should disgust a country that prides itself on meritocracy and hard work and self-made men. |
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Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...  Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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I'm not surprised really. The American ecnomical system seems to be biased towards big corperations and rich people, and not poor/middle class people. In Sweden, it dosen't matter if you're piss-poor you get good education and it's totally free! When you get up to the "college" level, you pretty much only need to pay for the books (though living isn't free  , but you get money from the goverment just being a student and can take some loans that you don't need to pay until after a year of your last semester).
And in Elementary school and Upper secondary school you get free lunch. What's so bad with equality? Needless to say, I been in public schools all the time and they're been rather superb. Yes we do apparently have the highest income taxes in the world, but come on... And yes I'm very biased towards education when it comes to politics. Yes, it's true there's some problems about getting jobs and stuff but people are more well-educated here. And to be honest I don't know about the unemployment rates in US, it might be much worse there! Dropping out of secondary upper school is unheard of, while High school dropouts are rather common it seems. :/ And to be honest, I don't really like the term "american dream". I don't really like politics when patrioism affects it too much. Yeah, be proud of your country but don't get blinded by it. :/ I heard some people avoiding a ideology just for it being "anti-american", and that disturbs me. And sorry for anyone I offended somehow. I rarely post in here becuse I don't want to be seen as some terrorist-communist-madman. (edited by Ailure the sexy catboy on 09-07-06 03:12 PM) |
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MathOnNapkins  1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Ailure the sexy catboy I suppose it reeks of communism... then again that would mean "all men are created equal" is somewhat communistic. Generally speaking, I think the problem of education is kind of complex here. Many factors other than just the school will affect how a student performs in school. Things such as poverty, crime / gang activity, single parent home, the general attitude of the populace, etc. For many people in poor communities it is not considered worthwhile to even go to school. And in many cases they are right - you could have a decent paying job without college or even a high school diploma. If you like working at a factory that is. When I read interviews of local high school age kids in the newspaper, they say that they plan on earning money by learning how to rap and/or playing basketball. If people think that's how they're going to get out of the ghetto they're delusional. As for funding, I think schools in the US are by far overpaid - even poor ones. The idea that you can throw money at a problem and buy newer computers and newer books to get people educated is half baked. I think it would be better to invest in the quality of instruction and keeping teachers motivated. Or better yet invest and encourage development in poorer areas to make them less susceptible to drug dealing and gang activity. The other option would be to evenly divide all school funding across each county, but I have a feeling that richer areas would just donate even more money to their local schools so that their kids have an edge. The richer the american, the better the education they want for their kids. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| I still say one of the central problems of American education is that it's funded from local property taxes. Surely that's pretty much the WORST way to do it. | |||
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6433 days Last view: 6433 days |
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| Another problem is what teachers are paid. County wide teachers in my county make the same no matter what school they teach at. The pay is just based on a scale of years worked. If they paid better salaries for inner city schools, than maybe those kids could get a better education. Need money? How bout we pull out of Iraq. That war costs an obscene amount of money. | |||
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drjayphd Torosu OW! BURNY! Since: 11-18-05 From: CT Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by sandrocklq Verily, but that's not the only place to start cutting costs. I mean, hi, pork. Ted Stevens must be made humble, old country way, for every project he's rammed through for Alaska. Oh, and as for Iraq, I forget exactly where, but someone had noted that for the cost of just one day in the war, we could inspect everything that comes through our ports... which we're, well, not doing. But yeah, the point of this is that it's one thing to have the resources, it's another to know how to use what you have. For a baseball analogy, look at the A's and Cubs. Oakland wins (well, at least in the regular season) with smart drafting and going after undervalued players (that's sabermetrics, not OPS uber alles). Chicago, well, really couldn't give a fuck what happens on the field so long as they keep getting 3 million + through the turnstiles a year. So they slack off and basically have no clue what they're doing (aside from yoinking Aramis Ramirez from Pittsburgh for a case of warm Schlitz). Then you've got teams like the Pirates and Royals, who seem to be content to just get fat off of revenue sharing. Somehow, I'm turning this into a defense of NCLB, which I sure as hell don't want to do, but maybe that's a question of the standards being all wrong. And even then, we're seeing that teachers just end up teaching to the test, rather than to educate. (sigh) |
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rubixcuber Mole  Since: 09-08-06 From: St. Louis, MO Last post: 6405 days Last view: 6405 days |
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| While pulling out of Iraq would save the US a lot of money, I don't think there is any chance of us pulling out for financial reasons. Personally I think that the amount of money spent on sports is ridiculous. If just 1% of the salaries of all the sports players in the US went towards education and other necessities it could make a difference. | |||
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| People *say* they value education, but people *pay* for what they really value.
*shrug* |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - American Dream |
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