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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - General Chat - Perpetual Motion |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828                    Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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Originally posted by Skreename They only care about the money. Who cares if people like you when you're the only one selling something they need? Obviously they can make much more money selling fuel that needs to be constantly supplied than an infinite source of energy. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| You know, I don't see anyone trying to make machines that create matter out of absolutely nothing, why do the think they can do that with energy? | |||
Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Perpetual Motion, as my father described to me once, is supposedly impossible. I have to disagree, and the pendulum is a perfect example. However, on the old fasioned grandfather clocks, it was necessary to give them a little push to keep them going 24/7.
Think of an oil well. A motor continuously is constantly spinning the wheels that move that big pump up and down. Without the motor, it's weight would drag down it's momentum and the pump would not spin the wheels all the way around, and the machine would break. Now, picture the grandfather clock again, unmoving. If you could set up magnets in a half circle, which would move the pendulum in one direction, gravity would eventually force it to come back down, and once it reached a perpendicular position with the ground, the other magnets, along with the momentum gained by the force of gravity, should swing it to another 120 degrees, maybe even less, but as long as it swings the exact same way on the other side, it will continue to swing in the exact same motion. Another example is, simply, a wheel. Place magnets with dissimilar poles on the wheel, and place more around the wheel in the opposite pattern. Eventually the wheel will continue to spin faster and faster, because the North ends will pull the South ends, and when they pass, they will repel from each other, and so on. However, undoubtedly, there must be some kinetic energy to start this process, and kinetic energy to produce a resisting force to stop the wheel from spinning too fast. If you want an example, the Superman ride at Paramount Canada's Wonderland uses this system to make the cars move. However, they use an electronic timer to change the time the magnetic poles change from north to south, and the latency between changes decreases as the cars need to move faster. It's plausible, is what I'm saying, but where is the link to this guys rant? |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| No, its not plausible.
For example, the earth is revolving around the sun, and will continue to revolve around it for the next 5 billion years, at which point the sun will collapse. However if the Sun never collapsed, the Earth would eventually stop reolving aroung the sun due to contact with metors and dust, which take energy from it. The movement of the earth around the sun is kinetic energy. It isn't being created or destroyed, its just there, and if the earth never came in contact with anything else, it would never stop or slow down. If ran in a perfect vacuum (something, that as far as I know, doesn't exist), this guy's invention may very well run forever, but that does nobody any good, besides giving you something neat to look at (come to think of photons would likely slow it down too, so you couldn't even look at it). But as soon as any of the kinetic energy is transfered to something else (like to, say, run an appliance), it will stop or slow down. (edited by emcee on 08-20-06 05:16 PM) (edited by emcee on 08-21-06 12:50 AM) |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I think you might be confused at what I mean about kinetic energy.
Kinetic energy is PHYSICAL energy. If you spun a wheel on a spindle by hand, you created kinetic energy to spin the wheel. Now, it would seem possible that the earth would stop spinning around the earth due to meteors and dust, but there are 2 things which contradict that: 1) The sun, in itself, acts as a magnet to whip the earth around it when spring begins, and whip it away when fall starts. It's gravitational force is powerful enough, at this distance, for all the planets in the galaxy to use as a slingshot, enough to sling around, but also enough not to let us fly away. 2) There is no proof to state that the earth will stop moving indefinitely. If you have some proof that it will, please elaborate. This particular argument could go on for hours, so I'll leave it there unless you wish to go on. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| The law of conservation of energy is one of the basic concepts that most mordern physics are based around, and its the first law of thermodynamics. The law of inertia is Newton's first law of motion, and part of the basis for Newtonian physics. I don't have to prove what other much smarter men already have. | |||
182077607309.34 + Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 11-22-05 From: Atlantis. All your base are belong to us. Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6321 days |
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I would think that the Earth would fall out of orbit before it stopped…. And what do you mean by “If ran in a perfect vacuum (something, that as far as I know, doesn't exist)”? I always thought making a vacuum was as simple as pumping the air out of a sealed container…. |
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Guy Perfect Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Technically speaking, true perpetual motion is not possible. Entropy and equalization both play a role in proving that to be true.
However, when's the last time you had a car that could run forever? Most of the time, they break down and you buy new ones. The only real deal with "perpetual motion" is to create a machine that can run for a reasonable amount of time without fuel. Just as a clock can be powered by a pendulum swinging by gravity and magnetics, a car could concievably be powered by some sort of "prolonged motion" setup. While Earth will eventually stop spinning, your car won't need to be running at that time. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by 182077607309.34 + Well, yeah, it would fall into the sun. The same way man made satellites fall to earth eventually. As far as no perfect vacuums go, I think it has something to do with quantum mechanics, I'm not really sure. Originally posted by "Guy Perfect" I think the pendulum on a clock just keeps time, I don't they actually powers the clock, I think they have to be wound. I could be wrong about that, but either way it will eventually slow down due to friction even if it takes a long time. The amount of friction acting on a clock is alot less than a car though. |
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Guy PerfectYou can already get a minor effect similar to that on most mountain roads just from momentum. Whenever I go to Vermont, on the way to Lenina's house in Smuggler's Notch, there's this mountain pass where, at the top of the mountain you can just put your car in neutral. You can actually gain so much momentum coming off the mountain that you can travel for over 10 miles, breaking the speed limit the entire way. On a more technical note, ideally it may be possible to recapture 99% of the momentum lost during breaking and somehow store it for use later. This is actually the general principle of the Toyota Prius. Only on a much MUCH less efficient scale. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Until perpetual motion means "perpetual brewing"...I don't care. | |||
Cadohacan Since: 05-21-06 From: NY Last post: 6411 days Last view: 6411 days |
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| wow according to slashdot an irish company claims to have made a perpetual motion machine that has something to do with 'circular motion'.
http://slashdot.org/articles/06/08/21/173253.shtml this would be a very interesting except for the fact i had a vist from dublin, ireland and according to the whois the company claiming this is infact in dublin.  (edited by Cadohacan on 08-21-06 05:21 PM) |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by CadohacanYou know what's sad? The fact even one person on slashdot even gave this garbage the time of day in the first place. It's really, REALLY, sorry. I swear, people will belive anything, it's incredible. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I see alot of disbelief in this topic here about the idea of perpetual motion. You cannot tell me that the magnet device linked to in the original post couldn't work. There is no way in hell that you can prove me wrong with physical evidence. And now 2 different people have proven you wrong, one with concrete evidence, and one without.
So where do these conclusions lead us to? That perpetual motion is a myth? Open your eyes and see that you are blinded by your newtons law. There are new laws which much be written to accompany this. The magnet device I described earlier in this thread (The wheel one) will eventually begin to spin out of control, so you must compensate with friction or the motion will not stop. Kinetic energy must restrict the uncontrollable acceleration to keep the motion perpetual, at the same pace all the time. Air and space resistance are not enough for this. Thats what I theorize, and both these people proved me RIGHT. |
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Zer0wned Koopa Since: 12-09-05 From: Torrance, ca Last post: 6454 days Last view: 6454 days |
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This device is complete and total bull.
green is the opposing force by the top magnet, the red are the fan magnets, blue is gravity (lol). See the little black circle? that's one of the two approximate balance points between the gravitational and magnetic forces. They'd eventually be pushing and pulling against the fulcrum of the ball bearing center with equal force, thereby finding a stabilized point and halting all movement. Rom maniac: I demand a diagram from you, because if I'm understanding your description correctly, it sounds like something that would cause magnets to push and pull against each other from within a wheel, resulting in absolutely no movement. |
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FreeDOS + Giant Red Koopa Legion: freedos = fritos  Since: 11-17-05 From: Seattle Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| The electromagnetic force, however, is stronger than gravity. It'd be like finding the balance between a human's strength and that of a cat, where one cannot push an object in the middle completely against the other, assuming all the strength is being used; it's just pretty much impossible for that to happen.
Fun-fact: Gravity actually happens to be the weakest force in our Universe! |
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Zer0wned Koopa Since: 12-09-05 From: Torrance, ca Last post: 6454 days Last view: 6454 days |
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| Touche on that point, I'd assumed a typical obtainable magnet, where the only way to exceed the net force of gravity was to be really close, so maybe in all cases the balance point may not be the deciding factor.
However, the once-helpful repelling force will in turn work against the desired direction once magnet number two comes within range of the force. Before it has the chance to exceed the >90 degree angle required for the device to be positively affected by the magnetic force, it will have worked against it in an equal manner, thereby neutralizing any net gain in momentum. This is a very black and white viewing of the matter though. In this particular situation, several magnets are being utilized in a way that is turning them in relation to each other. With the way magnetism is, I have a very difficult time visualizing how the varying polarities and strengths will affect each other. Why doesn't this guy actually build a prototype? If he's so damned confident, just make it already. Not like it requires much. |
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Cadohacan Since: 05-21-06 From: NY Last post: 6411 days Last view: 6411 days |
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| slashdot is refusing to listen or make any correction to their article, and the wired has yet to respond despite the fact that the digg article thankfully predates anything from this irish company so far.
also i already have, i had the idea while i was cleaning my CPU fan and decided to rip it apart rather then put it back, and put magnets on some of the fans and exposed it to a larger magnet of the same polarity. it isn't a very hard idea to understand, unless of course you're planning of thinking putting the larger magnet in a postion where it would be literally inbetween fanblades, and push them apart. then you're just a big dummy. (edited by Cadohacan on 08-22-06 08:02 AM) |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Rom ManicYou theorize like a 6th grader. Newton's law has nothing to do with it. Facts: Perpetual motion is forbidden by the basic laws of thermodynamics. Magnetism is not a free energy source because force only applies only perpindicular against the motion with respect to the flux lines. Anyone who has "proof" that these 2 fasts are wrong is either lying or stupid. There is no discussion or debate. It's like debating that the sky is blue or checkered green and orange. It's a debate with an idiot or a madman. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Or a person who is colour blind, douche. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - General Chat - Perpetual Motion |
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