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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - General Chat - It's a glorious day for P2P; 'closing letter' delivered to RIAA, MIAA, etc. |
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Rom Manic                  Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by windwaker I know it is, but I wanted to make a cool picture  |
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||bass Administrator    Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by windwakerWell, that's kinda the point. It is legal, that's why I used that analogy even though it doesn't work even remotely like the technology at work here. It's more like if every book in the universe was made up of 1000 different generic pages, and the content that resulted just depends on which pages you use and in what order. They can never say that you copied harry potter because you just got page 764, 653, 321, and 11 all from different sources (assuming those 4 generic pages in that order would give you harry potter somehow, I know this doesn't make sence for books but just trust me when I say it does for data). Each individual doesn't know what those pages could be used for. Any of those pages could be used for millions of different legitimate applications. I can send generic page 764 to whoever I want, the page is an important aspect of basic shoe repair. There is no way I could possibly know that the other guy is using it to assemble a copy of harry potter. Thus the actual sending of the information is legal.Originally posted by ||bass |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6406 days Last view: 6406 days |
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Originally posted by ||bassOriginally posted by windwakerWell, that's kinda the point. It is legal, that's why I used that analogy even though it doesn't work even remotely like the technology at work here. It's more like if every book in the universe was made up of 1000 different generic pages, and the content that resulted just depends on which pages you use and in what order. They can never say that you copied harry potter because you just got page 764, 653, 321, and 11 all from different sources (assuming those 4 generic pages in that order would give you harry potter somehow, I know this doesn't make sence for books but just trust me when I say it does for data). Each individual doesn't know what those pages could be used for. Any of those pages could be used for millions of different legitimate applications. I can send generic page 764 to whoever I want, the page is an important aspect of basic shoe repair. There is no way I could possibly know that the other guy is using it to assemble a copy of harry potter. Thus the actual sending of the information is legal.Originally posted by ||bass OK, let me get this straight: They could potentially monitor individual user's downloading, but they wouldn't be able to tell if any one person was downloading anything illegal using this technology, unlessy they knew for sure that the site hosting the file hosted illegal material? If it does, that's not so much the legal loophole they make it sound like as it is a practical loophole. That is still interesting... and sorta scary, too. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-15-06 10:53 PM) |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6326 days Last view: 6304 days |
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Originally posted by witeasprinwow No, the site sends files which contain part useless bytes, and part bytes from the pirated file. It's basically like smuggling little tiny pieces of a stolen (music/movie piracy is not stealing!) statue through a few bags of gravel. You take the pieces of the statue out and reassemble it at the end, discarding the gravel. edit; Originally posted by ||bass What the hell are you talking about? I haven't IM'd you, ever. I don't appreciate you insulting the userbase of this board, if you don't like it, GTFO. (edited by windwaker on 08-15-06 10:57 PM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6406 days Last view: 6406 days |
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Originally posted by windwakerOriginally posted by witeasprinwow That doesn't answer my question... I understood what you said already. Can organizations like the RIAA still monitor these files in the way they have in the past? EDIT: Don't take ||bass' comments so personally. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-15-06 10:58 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-15-06 10:59 PM) |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6326 days Last view: 6304 days |
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Originally posted by witeasprinwowOriginally posted by windwakerOriginally posted by witeasprinwow I guess I don't understand your question? How could the RIAA monitor your downloading anyway? Originally posted by witeasprinwow He didn't address anyone and he was right under me, so I assumed he was talking about me. (edited by windwaker on 08-15-06 11:00 PM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6406 days Last view: 6406 days |
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Originally posted by windwaker Let's pretend I'm a fruitcake and I'm downloading a Justin Timberlake album from a torrent file. The RIAA can sit in on the file, monitoring the people that download from it, and use that information for possible subpoenas down the road. Or for services that offer direct one-on-one p2p, they can download copyrighted files from people and then subpoena the people they download from for hosting the files. Will they be able to monitor the activity of these kinds of files as well? Practically, I mean? EDIT: The more I think about this, the answer is probably yes. But I'd still like someone to verify anyways. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-15-06 11:04 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-15-06 11:04 PM) |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by windwakerOne. I wasn't talking to you for one thing, I was talking to people who were already starting to bug me about 'omg that isn't how it works'. Second, I made the stupidity comment not for you but because 3/4 of the people in this thread seem to totally not understand how the technology works. Next order of buisness: Originally posted by windwakerThis is not what the abstract says the technology does. What you are describing is steganography (disguising diamonds within gravel), this technology is NOT steganographic in nature. On the other hand, what whiteasprinwow said IS correct. They could not tell what the information you send is because the blocks sent are generic, they are basic building blocks of files that do not represent any specific completed work until specific blocks are assembled in a specific order. This is NOT steganography or information hiding. |
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Sakura Secret! Since: 11-30-05 Last post: 6368 days Last view: 6338 days |
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| In short: It's like a large puzzle with several totally useless pieces. | |||
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Fire AlexaYes and not just that. You can make different pictures on the puzzle depending on which peices you use and how you snap them together. |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6326 days Last view: 6304 days |
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Originally posted by ||bassOriginally posted by windwakerOne. I wasn't talking to you for one thing, I was talking to people who were already starting to bug me about 'omg that isn't how it works'. Second, I made the stupidity comment not for you but because 3/4 of the people in this thread seem to totally not understand how the technology works. Fine, but if you're going to insult someone, at least be clever. Originally posted by ||bass My analogy could've been better, but it's accurate if you say that the gravel isn't really gravel, but pieces of the other statues... just use the puzzle analogy. 
Fun fact: creating steganographic images is illegal in some states. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| :: snip ::
EDIT: I decided the origional post wasn't worth the trouble it would cause. (edited by ||bass on 08-16-06 02:48 PM) (edited by ||bass on 08-16-06 02:48 PM) |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| They had a few good analogies on their site. Consider the blocks to be like a pen and paper. These aren't illegal. You can make millions of different drawings with them; some of them might infringe on copyright, but most won't. Basically they're supplying blocks of random nonsense; it's up to you to supply the formula (the file link) that turns this nonsense into a copy of Never Ever by Hamasaki Ayumi. A different formula might turn it into a picture of George Bush. A picture of Bush isn't illegal, so why would the data used to make it be?
Funny, too... I thought of this sort of thing quite some time ago (write a program that makes music out of any random binary file, and distribute what would be an illegal copy of something as a song instead) but I couldn't think of a way that didn't still mean distributing copies of the file itself.  (edited by HyperHacker on 08-16-06 09:55 PM) |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I've read through the technical details, and I think I see how this works. It's clever, and it certainly creates a techinal loophole. But not a legal loophole. As long as a network implementing this system can be shown to promote piracy (which, according to the supreme court, means simply not trying to stop it), then just acting as a node on that network could also be consider promoting piracy, allowing you to be sued under the same precedence that won them the case against Grokster, without ever having to prove you, yourself, actually commited piracy. | |||
Jilkon Cappy  Since: 11-27-05 From: Teh Sweden Last post: 6378 days Last view: 6327 days |
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Originally posted by witeasprinwow Perhaps not. But you can justify file sharing. And it stands as clear as day that what the music industry is doing is but a desperate fight to hang on to what soon will be long lost. The internet will make music more interesting and more available (and cheaper!), for everyone's (except the record company CEO dudes) good. Fighting it is dumb. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6406 days Last view: 6406 days |
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Originally posted by Jilkon No. If you don't give people some risk of being caught, almost nobody is going to buy the CD's. And you're forgetting about the artists who are trying to make a living off their music. True they will still get money from other music-related sources, but you're still unfairly cutting into their margins. Plus there are some solo artists who like being a one-man act and not going out on tour, and letting piracy run rampant would screw them all over. |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6434 days Last view: 6434 days |
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| The RIAA needs to grow a brain. Suing 12 year olds and grannies is a poor PR move. There will always be piracy unless we live in a total police state(and no one wants that).
I'd have less of a problem with it if they just told the people they caught that you have to pay for the cost of what you downloaded if you want to keep it. That's only fair, if nothing else to make sure the artist gets compensated. The problem is that the recording industry will screw any artist without a good agent. I like the solo guys approach best. Just sell albums directly. I think Weird Al does it that way now. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by emceeYes except you're missing a critical point. Grokster was a private corperation that marketed software for use with a centralized network. OFF is an open system that users will eventually be able to integrate into any system. It's a methodology moreso than a product. If implemented on a decentralized network such as Kad, they would have to prove that every specific user was sharing copyrighted files one at a time. Not only would the legal costs of millions of court cases bankrupt even the largest companies, they would lose every individual case because in order to litigate against a specific user, the burden of proof would be on the MPAA/RIAA/etc to prove that the specific user is promoting piracy, something you can't do without knowing the exact identity of the user as well as the file being served (a feat FAR more easily said than done on the new OFF system). I don't know how many times I have to say this. The fact you can't justify something had ZERO impact on whether or not you can prove it in a court of law. The legal rules of evidence are far stricter than any rules set down for a phylosophical debate. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Has anyone tried installing the software? It doesn't seem to work, or maybe I did it wrong somehow...
Anyway, whether or not you can prove anything in court about this in court remains to be seen, because it's a win-lose situation. It's still the same file, but the RIAA can't say it's their file. At the same time, it may be disguised, but isn't that what we call smuggling (Like someone earlier here said), which is outlawed? |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Technically it's not smuggling because you aren't moving the product itself ilegally. It's like this: If Picasso made a painting worth millions and brought it across the border, he would be subject to tax. If however, Picasso simply brought canvas and a paintset and didn't paint the actual painting until afterwards, the tax would not be applicable in this case. There is also no way to say that Picasso should be taxed higher for the canvas and paint because he WILL make it into an expensive masterpeice because the paints and canvas are too generic to make that assumption. There is no way to know how the painting will turn out until after it's already been painted.
Similarly, there's no way to know what the data blocks are going to build until after the file has been fully assembled on the destination hard drive, at which point it's too late. This is not encryption, this is not data hiding. There is mathematically NO way to say what the blocks build because the correlation between blocks and finished files is not one-to-one. The blocks can be assembled to form basic_shoe_repair.pdf just as easily as they can be assembled to form copyrighted_song.mp3. You would literally need a time machine to know how things turn out before it's too late. Even if the MPAA connected to the network and retrived a file, it wouldn't work because there is at least a possibility that every single user that sends a block to the downloading machine does not have a copy of any parts of the song anywhere on their computer. The block that my computer sends to the MPAA computer might very well have origionally come from basic_shoe_repair.pdf. I don't have copyrighted_song.mp3 anywhere on my computer, in fact I may have never even heard of the song. That doesn't stop my computer from sending a 128k block that just happens to fit what the MPAA machine is asking for. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - General Chat - It's a glorious day for P2P; 'closing letter' delivered to RIAA, MIAA, etc. |
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