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| 0 users currently in ROM Hacking. |
| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - okay, datacrystal... |
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bluerum Goomba                  Since: 11-30-05 From: forest of silence Last post: 6522 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| i appreciate your unification of knowledge, but apparently both mine and my colleages works have been printed over at your site without permission. amongst other places...
any of my hacks, i wish to be either removed or printed with correct creditation. by the by, this is REDRUM. my password was hacked (you know who you fucks are) so i had to start a new account. this only pisses me off because i am not credited. |
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Sakura Secret!  Since: 11-30-05 Last post: 6358 days Last view: 6328 days |
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| One; PM me, I'll reset your password , provided you give me a link to it.
Second, can't you just edit the pages yourself?  I thought that's the whole thing it'd be about. |
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Jigglysaint Octoballoon   Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| I've just been inside the datacrystal chat room, and from what I understand, the guidelines for data is that all content pages arn't credited, but that credit can be put in the talk pages. | |||
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bluerum Goomba Since: 11-30-05 From: forest of silence Last post: 6522 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| so basically if our work is coded into the page, it is up to us to take credit for it?
something about that doesnt settle well with me. |
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Xkeeper Took the board down in a blaze of glory, only to reveal how truly moronical ||bass is.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Henderson, Nevada Last post: 6287 days Last view: 6287 days |
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Originally posted by JigglysaintThat somehow seems wrong to me, too; if you found the data, your name should be put under there, even if it's just a small "(found by: whoever)". Forcing someone to come take credit themselves is just lame. |
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Gau Newcomer Since: 11-17-05 From: Boulder CO Last post: 6541 days Last view: 6541 days |
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| There's a very simple reason for the way we ask for credit to be given for data; the streamlining of pages. Each page of data on a ROM is intended to be part of a single unified "ROM map" or "RAM map"; if each small section of data is interrupted by a credit, this becomes a complete and utter mess. For any given -hack-, we have a different format; either the creator is credited in the Infobox (see http://www.datacrystal.org/wiki/Hat_Quest for an example), or we simply link to a page where the hack can be found. If you find information on DataCrystal that has supposedly been added from your work without your permission, please let us know so we can investigate the matter further. Remember, not everyone who posts information on DataCrystal is actually associated with the project, as it were, and we have to assume in good faith that anyone who posts has permission to post. Please get in contact with us; and/or post messages on the talk pages of articles where you feel your work has been compomised.
I must also note that lists of information are -not- copyrightable in the United States (see 499 U.S. 340, Feist Publications, Inc., v. Rural Telephone Service Co., Inc.) (edited by Gau on 12-01-05 03:24 AM) (edited by Gau on 12-01-05 04:37 AM) |
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Gavin Cheep-cheep Vandalism is not tolerated Since: 11-17-05 From: IL, USA Last post: 6364 days Last view: 6307 days |
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| I disagree with Redrum and Xkeeper. I mean, why create public data at all if the data isn't free? In my opinion it seems somewhat egotistical to demand credit. After all, it's not like we're actually creating code or something new, just analyzing already existing code and data structures. Sooner or later somebody will have been able to come around and repeat the data, this just saves them time. Where works should be respected and credited are in the hacks themselves.
I have spent a hell of a lot of time hacking and debugging FF1 and my works means a lot to me. However I don't have any illusions that the skills I learned enabling me to find the pieces of data that I have in my notes aren't in some way related to previous advances in the scene. Whether it's somebody else's comments on a routine, a RAM location that saves me a day of work, the actual tools I use to do complex ROM inspection, or the people that helped me along when I was learning romhacking and disassembling. "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.", as they say. In that way, it is my own personal belief that all information should be free for this particular hobby. Because almost every romhacker has, at some point, gotten the aid of another scene member for free, I see it as a way to give back without being all crybaby about it. |
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Gau Newcomer Since: 11-17-05 From: Boulder CO Last post: 6541 days Last view: 6541 days |
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| While you certianly have a point, Gavin, it's also important to remember that while exploratory ROM hacking is for the most part a scientific process, making playable ROM hacks is a creative process, and we do indeed include pages about hacks and utilities on Data Crystal. Though in reality these materials are actually, as derivative works, still held in copyright by the original game designers, no one likes to feel their work is being passed off as another's. That applies to the excavation of data as well; no one likes to feel that their work is being taken for granted. The data itself is free, at least in the U.S. (see my previous comment), but some people do not understand copyright law. Furthermore, even if the data is free, it is more the fact that people feel they have been used than the actual "theft of information" that angers people. This is why we agreed to put attributions on the talk pages of appropriate articles, and in the infoboxes of hacks and utilities. | |||
NetSplit Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6449 days Last view: 6449 days |
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| How does that apply to hacks and utilities? Hacks and utilities are entirely original and thus the copyright of the original game developers does not apply at all, right? I don't see how you could get away without giving that information on those pages (note that I'm not saying you are). As for as the data goes, though, I do think that crediting people for information is still important, regardless of how it's done. An incredible amount of work is put into this stuff much of the time; I wouldn't be all that happy if I found tons of data for a game and received no credit for it, though it wouldn't be that big of a deal, really. Regardless, though, if I did something like finding most of the data in a game specifically for other people to use, I'd appreciate getting credit for it; it's a matter of courtesy, in my opinion. But again, it's not terribly vital or anything. Meh. | |||
Dragonsbrethren   440  Since: 12-01-05 From: New Jersey Last post: 6474 days Last view: 6474 days |
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| Bah, stop bring politics into this, redrum wants to be credited for his work, credit him. I've posted hacks without the creator's permission, but I also printed who made it and linked to their page.
By the way, redrum, how've you been? Haven't talked to you in ages. |
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Dan Purple Leever Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6287 days |
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| For hacking information, (like ROM/RAM addresses, and descriptions of formats) I think no credit should be given. I personally don't add anything I haven't found out myself to Data Crystal. If you really want credit, register a username, and add the data yourself. The history tab will note your contribute and that to me is adequate enough credit - if you feel the need to be credited that is, personally, I don't care much about credit. If someone gets use out of my information, that's all the satisfaction I need.
Plus, it brings up another issue. What if, someone adds information, and another person comes along and corrects it? Sure, you could write (originally added by xyz, edited by abc), but what if it gets corrected by numerous different people? That would lead to a god ugly page. I'm not sure why utilities/hacks were mentioned, as the individual pages for each utility/hack states the author. I believe Data Crystal has the right policy on this matter. |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6526 days Last view: 6526 days |
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| I agree. In many scenes, credit for such things is not given to the person who found it. For example, in the SID/NSF music ripping scene, you almost never see the rip credited to who ripped it, but only the original author. As we didn't create this information, we shouldn't be looking for ego by saying "I found this, this, and this, see?". The person who finds the information doesn't "own" it any more than the rest of us do. If anything, stick a line on the page saying "This data originally found by [whoever], and edited for correction by [whatever]. And I also feel that this would be best handled on the talk pages. If you're looking for ego-stroking, the ROM hacking scene is not the place to find it.
Hacks are different. The person who makes a hack should, of course, receive credit. But that's not what's being argued here, as best I can tell. (edited by LocalH on 12-01-05 04:18 PM) |
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bluerum Goomba Since: 11-30-05 From: forest of silence Last post: 6522 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Gavin in essence, however, you were always able to thank those people for the pointers they gave. if someone uses that information without knowing where it came from, then it erases the whole purpose of the community. overlooking the information itself being there, someone's actual works should definately be credited or it is all for naught. |
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Dan Purple Leever Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6287 days |
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| What is it you want credit for anyways? | |||
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Gavin Cheep-cheep Vandalism is not tolerated Since: 11-17-05 From: IL, USA Last post: 6364 days Last view: 6307 days |
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Originally posted by bluerum not really. if you want to make friends and talk to someone then sure, it might defeat some of that, but I don't romhack beacuse I want to start a dialogue with someone. And forgive me, but I never quite saw what the point of "community" was anyway, at least in the sense that I hear people talk about it. I romhack first and foremost because I am interesting in reverse engineering video games. And I'm very confident that the community could exist and work extremely well without knowing where the information came from. Just imagine a mini-scenario in your head: pretend the whole board was posting under the username "guest", as on phpBB boards, and somebody posts a romhacking question. Would you not respond because you didn't have a username? So again, no, that does not hold true if your intentions are to romhack; exchange data and routine comments; RAM locations; other techniques and tips. If you want to have a chat with someone on the internet, then sure, it might Originally posted by bluerum Again: not really. I see a distinction between creative works and reverse-engineering. Reverse engineering is simply uncovering what is already there. Anybody can do it, and when you do it, the results are in no way unique. I agree that romhacks, as creative derivations of original works should be credited. The true test of a romhacker is what they can do with the data...whatever wild and inspiring narratives, levels, sprites (whatver that romhacker is working on) that hacker comes up with... that's the whole point of romhacking. I also fail to see how not being credited for something makes the work "all for naught". If you romhack to be acknowledged, to get respect or something, then I guess it would be. But I was under the impression that romhacks were personal works... I mean I debug FF1 out of a general curiosity. The joy I get in discovering the purpose of a new routine, tweaking some aspect of the game is very real, and not something I do to start up a conversation. Sharing can be fun I guess, but only if they are in a position to understand and appreciate the work. Which is again, a creative endeavor separate from simply identifying code/data, IMO. That said, it's not for me to tell you exactly how you should and shouldn't feel about romhacking or what it should mean to you. If you romhack because X reason, and just feel that it's polite and appropriate for people to site sources or whatever... then by all means. I wasn't trying to be a prick in this thread, just posting my random inane musings about the situation and offering my personal perspective on romhacking.. |
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bluerum Goomba Since: 11-30-05 From: forest of silence Last post: 6522 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| gavin, if you say you were under the impression that romhacks are personal works, then i don't see why you have such a problem with people knowing who did them.
perhaps they have other questions for that person or want to sample some of their other works? to me that is better than just blindly ciphering through what another has done. (edited by bluerum on 12-01-05 06:18 PM) |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6526 days Last view: 6526 days |
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| It seems to me that you are conflating "crediting released ROM hacks" with "crediting who found the function of the subroutine at ROM offset $xxxx". The former should receive credit. The latter should only be done so in a general sense, for instance "ROM/RAM information contributed by X, Y, and Z".
Edit: Actually, I see, it's not you conflating the issues, it's other people in the thread. Guys, he explicitly said in the first post that he wanted his hacks credited. Nowhere did he say he found a certain piece of raw hacking information and wanted credit for it. (edited by LocalH on 12-01-05 08:42 PM) |
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Jigglysaint Octoballoon Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| Whoops, I guess I misread that. Actually, for some people it would be better if they did leave their name off their hacks, if they are bad that is. I think I would be a little upset if somebody were to submit my hack without my credit, especially if it's possible that people would mistaken it for a hack them did. It's kinda like when Vagla got credit for stuff FX3 did, mainly because Vagla was the head of DES, and the project was a DES project.
BTW, sorry if I unearthed any old wounds, but I was trying to find an example of when credit is due, and why is should. |
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bluerum Goomba Since: 11-30-05 From: forest of silence Last post: 6522 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH bingo. its good to know someone understood what i meant |
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Dragonsbrethren 440 Since: 12-01-05 From: New Jersey Last post: 6474 days Last view: 6474 days |
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Originally posted by bluerumOriginally posted by LocalH I just added some credits to the CV section, for all the hacks I knew of. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - okay, datacrystal... |
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