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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - If there is a hell,some good people go there |
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Arwon Bazu                  Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| There are good people who don't accept Jesus as their saviour and don't believe in God.
If you don't believe in these things, you go to hell. Therefore some good people go to hell. Why do so many christians seem to have such a hard time with the idea that some of their fundamentally decent family, friends and loved ones will be/are being tortured for all eternity? Isn't this a logical consequence of the belief system? Isn't it just intellectual cowardice to believe in magical death-bed conversions saving people, and in "purgatory" and so forth? |
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witeasprinwow  Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6405 days Last view: 6405 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon You are treating Christians as one large group. This is mostly incorrect; there are many different denominations, each with it's own viewpoint on this. I don't know about every type of Christianity, but I know Catholicism (The kind that recognizes the Pope) has three different kinds of baptism: water (Traditional church kind), blood (people who die for a just cause can go to heaven), or desire (people who genuinely look for God but don't find him or find some other religion can still go to heaven). Some other denominations have something similar to this. Now, there are some types of Christians that do believe in your sentiment (Southern Baptist), and for that I agree entirely. Purgatory is intellectual cowardice? Purgatory is where you go to repent for the mistakes you made in life. To say it's cowardice seems awfully harsh to me. |
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Young Guru Snifit   Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I know that catholics don't (or at least shouldn't, because it isn't in the doctrine) believe that people that are not catholics go to hell. In the catholic faith it is believed that if you are a truly good person that is equivalent to belief. If, say, there is a person in the middle of an uncivilized (I use this lightly, not to mean that these people are evil or without intelect) area where there is no religion but treats people with respect and love they will be accepted into heaven. As well as those who believe in other religions, such as judaism, islam, hindu, budhism, etc. If they are truly good people God will be pleased with them and they will be greeted at the gates of heaven.
Purgatory is a wierd thing, some catholics believe in it, others don't. It doesn't come directly from scripture, it was concieved sometime in the second milenium (I'm not too good with dates, but I'm thinking 1400's). It's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure whether or not I believe in it. And the concept of purgatory is not for people with grave sins such as murder or rape, or anything attrocious like that, but more for people with minor sins. The distinction between grave and minor sins is really hard to tell, is adultury a grave sin worthy of damning someone to eternal punishment, or is it just a really bad minor sin that will keep someone in purgatory for a longer time than someone who makes fun of people. It's really impossible to determine from here on earth. |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6433 days Last view: 6433 days |
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| I never really understood the concept of heaven, hell, purgatory, etc. I know that when I die I don't want to have to worship anything for eternity. If there actually is a hell, and good people go there, my guess is that the devil dragged them there against "God's" will. | |||
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Kingpin Since: 11-21-05 From: Amarillo, TX Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Look at this situation. You mother just died and wasn't saved. Are you gonna think to yourself at her funeral "She is burning in hell right now, and will for all eternity." Of course its hard to deal with. When you have that beliefe system, its the hardest thing to deal with. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Which of course begs the question of how people can sing praises to a deity they think would do that... it seems like a form of self abuse to, firstly, submit to these impossible standards of behaviour and these beliefs. Maybe it's why most christians I know seem pretty miserable.
When people die, especially those who were the most irreligious and stuff, the last place I could ever find solace is in the company of the pious. They DO. NOT. GET. IT. "He's gone to a better place" -- how do you know?? According to your rules, no, that's not the case, he hasn't. Don't be a wimp about these things. Originally posted by witeasprinwow Firstly, my understanding is that purgatory has no actual scriptural basis and is, more or less, made up for precisely the reasons outlined. A prime example of people not being able to deal with the repercussions of the things set down in their own faith. Wimpiness. Changing stuff willy-nilly to make the ideas seem less crazy. Now, I do know a little about the bible, and I know a lot about how fucked the world is, and it seems like given how the world operates if there is a God he's far more likely to be what the fundamentalists think--spiteful, capricious, pretty fundamentally unjust--not what the wishy-washy liberals think. Stuff like the the testing of Abraham with Isaac, for example, ot the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah... that stuff is BATSHIT CRAZY and people's only response to this observation is to suggest that this can't possibly be true and blah blah blah. The evidence indicates that our beliefs are misguided, so we must be making a mistake in our interpretations of the evidence. The entire first half of the Bible is basically God doing crazy shit, and the second half is about "the only way to God is through Jesus". Where's this forgiving, feel-good, all-loving God the more wishywashy christians keep talking about? Where's the evidence for it? I'm sorry, but I can't see how these ideas that, for example, people of other faiths or no faith go to heaven, are anything other than people trying to ameliorate the unpalatable, batshit elements of the faith they've got themselves into... it's all well and good to claim this stuff but it just sounds like desperate rationalisation to me. (edited by Arwon on 08-01-06 07:10 PM) (edited by Arwon on 08-01-06 07:18 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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I've always seen heaven as a rather boring sounding place where nothing fun is allowed and everyone just sits around talking about how wonderful god is. Kind of like a cult brainwashing commune or something. Hell sounds more interesting. All the cool people will be there  Really, why would i want to be sitting around wallowing in how great the god is when he allows all this suffering and did all that horrible stuff to us in the past? |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6405 days Last view: 6405 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Well, according to scriptures, we don't know much about Heaven other than it's supposed to be pretty good. Maybe heaven is a place with no idiots? Sounds like it to me. And the people who are saying "He's gone to a better place"... Yes, those people are weak and don't get it. I'm not making excuses for them. Religion as an institution helps many people, but a lot of people also get caught up in it and sometimes brainwashed by it. Originally posted by Arwon This is true, but at the same time, an existence of a Purgatory doesn't mean that nobody is in Hell. I can see what you mean about intellectual cowardice now, though. Originally posted by Arwon Supposedly, God has a no-interference policy. I went to Catholic school for fourteen years; I've learned a few arguments over this topic. None of them are great and invincible, but I think they do an OK job of defending it. First off: The bible uses metaphors. Jesus's parables, for example, quite often talk in metaphor. To take stuff like Sodom and Gomorrah literally is just batshit crazy. (Fudamentalists, sorry, but you're on your own. I'm not defending you.) Instead, think of it as a story. Sodom and Gomorrah were towns full of hedons, and they were destroyed by some means. I don't remember shit about the history of the area, but maybe other cities, or natural disasters. God doesn't have to strike them down with thunder in order for justice to be served. This might be "intellectual cowardice," but it has a foundation. It's logical. I'm sure some people use it as a shield, but it's not an illogical viewpoint because of the people that believe in it. Second: God cannot really interfere with us. As a result of humans having freedom of choice, we have the ability to do wrong. If God were to just prevent all that, then where is the choice? We'd no longer have free will, and because of this we don't have the capability to do wrong... The choice to do wrong gives meaning to actions that are right. I don't think scripture ever promises that life on Earth will be fair and just, either. It's the afterlife that is balanced, not real life. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6488 days Last view: 6488 days |
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Freewill, in the Christian mindset, ranges from nihil to somewhat there based on the level of providence present in the beliefs  |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I love how Arwon essentially acts as if he's got it all figured out, standing triumphant above we lowly believers who trudge blindly and stupidly through life.
I don't understand how you can make a blanket statement of that sort, when you're certainly aware - being the knowledgable and well-read person you've shown yourself to be in the past - that only a specific set of Christian sects would declare any non-believer to be Hellbound. Ask the typical fire-and-brimstone Protestant about the ultimate destination for any Jew, and he'd answer as you would expect; however, that's not to say that any other Christian would say the same thing. Your point is true enough, but you need to be careful to limit it solely to those specific sects that allow Jesus as the only path to Salvation. There's no need to be so hamfisted and insult everyone else in the process. Edit to correct an incorrect homophone. (edited by Silvershield on 08-02-06 02:06 AM) |
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drjayphd Torosu OW! BURNY!  Since: 11-18-05 From: CT Last post: 6299 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| The only problem with that, SS, is that the fire and brimstone, accept Jesus or go to hell and die types aren't the most popular, but they're damn sure the loudest. So the SBC-types tend to get conflated with Christians in general.
And I've looked at the original question from the other side: the types that would say that good people who don't accept Jesus are going to hell tend to be the same types who'd say that all that's required to get into heaven is to accept him. Which is not how I roll. I don't think that's enough, I believe you do need to live a good life. But hey, they'd already think I was going to hell anyways because I was raised Roman Catholic, yes? |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by drjayphdA good point, one that I wish I'd mentioned myself. I've always had a rational objection to the claim that the only requirement for entrance into Heaven is a belief in Jesus: if a person believes in Jesus - and I mean earnestly believes - would he not seek to follow His teachings? After all, how true a believer can a person be if he refuses to act as his ultimate Lord demands of him? So, to simply believe in Jesus is not enough, because without good deeds accompanying that faith, there really is no belief in the first place. (Convoluted maybe, but it makes sense in my head. Heh heh.) Originally posted by drjayphdThe age-old Protestant-Catholic battle  . |
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MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Brilliant.... if I start my own Christian denomination, I can determine who goes to hell and who is saved  .
So, to simply believe in Jesus is not enough, because without good deeds accompanying that faith, there really is no belief in the first place. Hypothetical situation time just for fun: You've got a person who is introduced to the Gospels and Jesus' teachings. He/she is totally certain Jesus is their lord and savior but does no good deeds for the rest of the day. The very next day the person is struck by a truck and put into a terminal coma. This person cannot perform any conscious acts, or even interact with other humans, but they are still alive. When this person dies what is the status of their soul? (edited by MathOnNapkins on 08-02-06 02:23 AM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins...no, but you can opt to interpret Scripture in whatever way suits you, I suppose. Within reason, of course. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100 In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| There are people who think you will go to hell if you can't "speak in tongues." ... yeah. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkinsI dunno, ask some silly Protestant and see what he says. The answer for me, though, or for any intelligent Christian, would rest on whether the person is "good" or not. Originally posted by MathOnNapkinsMaybe their interpretation of Scripture isn't exactly "within reason." There are legitimate readings of a text, and there are illegitimate readings. Simple enough. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100 In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Not to be baited or bait you, but how are we to determine whether an interpretation is "legitimate"? | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6405 days Last view: 6405 days |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins We don't know. We're not supposed to know. We can guess, but we can't know. At least according to Catholicism, we don't know the exact measurements of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. We know that certain things are good will help you get into heaven, and that certain things are bad and will push you towards hell, but there's no formula to find this out. And even if we did have a formula for it, I don't think that would be enough information to run it. How bad was he in the past? Was he going to honestly change for the better? |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins"We" can't determine that, because "we" have no need to. If a certain sect interprets the text legitimately, more power to them - their religion is granted some degree of credibility. If they have come up with a totally insane, off the wall reading of the text, the only people who suffer are those who subscribe to that particular sect - why should you and I care? |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6433 days Last view: 6433 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb I've thought similar things, particularly hell. If for some odd reason I wound up there and I was able to control my actions, I would probably try to take it over. If you're going to be going through eternal suffering, you may as well irritate others while you're at it. |
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