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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - The Human Need For Hatred |
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Jomb Deddorokku                     Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Is there such a thing? Is it necessary for human society to have at least one group of people that it is socially acceptable to ridicule, beat down and hate? I was thinking about this recently, and here in America, it seems to me that at all times there has been at least one group of people it is OK to feel hatred and to discriminate against. There was the "nigger", then, about the time we (mostly) moved past that, it became the homosexuals. Nowadays (at least in most areas) it is very socially unaccpetable to exp |
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Cara Zeltina  90 Since: 05-11-06 Last post: 6353 days Last view: 6353 days |
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| Humans can live without hatred.. The problem is, hatred is not entirely inherent, but much of it is taught, or absorbed through unnaturally harsh environments. Essentially, while we can live without it.. it is very hard to get rid of once it forms. It takes many generations of life to cull it from our civilizations.. And even then, hatred is incredibly persistent and needs only survive through a single bloodline until it eventually spreads out again..
Add to that the strife of current world affairs too.. The seed of hatred gets planted years in advance, and then something political (or whatever) springs upwards, thus acting as a crutch for the hatred to act on.. It is damn hard to eliminate the problem, but no.. I don't think we need it. I do think life would be a bit more boring if we didn't have some kind of minor conflict\differences between us all though.. But that doesn't imply we have to hate one another to be happy, just that.. not everyone can be perfectly satisfied at all times. (Utopia is quite far-fetched.) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I bet Jomb says rich white guys or muslims. (edited by Arwon on 07-19-06 12:55 AM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon I was thinking he'd go the reverse racism route. We sorta agree. Slavery wasn't as much about looking down on black people as it was an economic thing. Slavery actually started to wane in the American south right before the cotton gin was invented, because taking care of slaves was too much of a hassle to have work for slowing decreasing returns on cotton. Anyways, since they had to be enslaved to be profitable, it makes sense that people started looking down on them. Can you whip and mistreat a person who you think is your equal, or worse, your superior? It takes a person of strong will to do that, and most people don't have that ability. So instead, if you learn to hate them, you don't have to deal with that load. (For reference, my first paragraph is pretty factual, while my second paragraph is mostly my own interpretation of the situation.) Anyways, most of the time, when someone hates a group, the person hating has problems of their own. Usually it's a form of passing the buck or shirking responsibility. Blue collar workers don't like immigrants taking their jobs? Maybe if you worked as hard as they did, you wouldn't have to worry about immigrant workers. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I don't think that, back then, people needed any convincing at all that African blacks were inherently inferior. The belief predates American slavery by a long way, and also predates the triangular colonial slave trade as a whole. | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon I knew about the American slavery part, but not about the colonial trade part. Oh well. I was just pissing in the wind anyways. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I'm not entirely sure about the origins of the slave trade, but I figure slaves musta been going into the British American colonies like they were into the rest of the Americas. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| No, i was'nt thinking about white guys or muslims. Though maybe there could be a case for either of those groups beginning to feel some discrimination. Who i was thinking of is a group who it is not only acceptable to discriminate against and to hate, but a group for which it is encouraged widely across the whole society, oftentimes vehemently and codified as law. So much so that i fully expect to be flamed for even mentioning it, but what the hell, i'm nothing if not controversial. As i've mentioned before i have a friend who is doing time for statutory rape, it is a bullshit charge as i've explained before. But the fact of the matter is that whether it is some bullshit or not, he will be considered a registered sex offender when he is finally released. He wrote me a letter recently and i was thinking about just how much discrimination he is going to have to deal with over that label. Its a label he will never be able to escape from, even if he lives to be 90 and has'nt done a single illegal thing since 19. In many states the police will literally have to go door to door everytime he changes address. How's that for a 1st impression? Most employers will not hire him. There may come a time soon when he'll be forced to wear a tracking collar as if he was some sort of animal they caught and tagged on a game preserve. Many places will not allow him to live there. It's kinda depressing to me to think that when he finally does get out he's really got shit to look forward to. The sad thing is that girl was 15 and consenting, he did'nt actually rape her, this punishment is so far out of proportion to his crime it just pisses me off to think about it. And no one is going to stand up for him because they dont want to be perceived as helping a "sex offender". This is about as institutionized as i could imagine discrimination getting. | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Being a sex offender is a bit different from being black. You have to do something to be a sex offender. Regardless of the validity of the law, you have a choice to break it or not, and you understand the consequences. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6470 days Last view: 6470 days |
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| I think you've overlooked his point. He is talking about an institutionalization of an irrational feeling. Hatred is very rarely rational. In the case of his friend it certainly isn't. His crime, though a crime by the laws of the United States, would be seen differently in many other nations. Additionally, the degree to which his crime shall haunt him follows along.
Rightly or wrongly he has become a part of the gradual institutionalization of hatred. It is nothing new. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password I think that's over-simplifying it, though. It's not just a law because people hate people who have sex with kids, it's a law to protect kids too. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6470 days Last view: 6470 days |
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| However, it is a blanket law that is seen as an objective truth. I'm not out to justify anything here. I'm just stating that it is one form (perhaps justified) of institutionalized hatred. I'm not even going to try to argue my own personal position. | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password Allright, fair enough. I should have understood this from your first post, really. I'll make a note to myself not to post in this forum while tired. EDIT: Jomb, I'd say the topic you brought up is a lot different from the examples in your first post. Being a sex offender is a much different quality than the rest of your examples you brought up. I'd say you can make an attempt to justify discrimination based on qualities of character; we do it all the time. If it's discrimination to seperate people based on what they do... That's like saying it's discriminating against bad employees by only hiring good employees. Discriminating against someone because of something superficial like skin tone or ethnicity - something the person did not choose - is different. (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-21-06 01:18 AM) |
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ziratha Koopa Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| Simply, a common enemy brings people together. I don't think you are so bad if that guy over there is worse. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Do you really know the consequences of the laws ahead of time? I sure as hell would'nt have dreamed in my wildest fantasies that you could get this sort of nightmare punishment over a consentual relationship with a 15 year old at age 18-19. Lets get real for a moment, age 15 is not a little kid, it is well past puberty. A large percentage of people have already lost their virginity by or around 15, this is not a rare or unusual state of affars, actually its pretty normal. 15 is a minor, but not a child, and it does'nt make someone a pedophile for being attracted to a 15 year old. This extreme draconian punishment for this "crime" would be hysterically comical if it were'nt so damn serious. This all happened several years ago My friend is still in prison. In prison he has been severely beaten and raped because his cover sheet says "sex offender" on it. Where is the justic for him? There is none, because society says he is "sex offender" so he deserves no justice. I know both parties to this "crime" personally. My friend was a quiet, shy and gentle man. He was'nt out to take advantage of her, he had feelings for her. And she cried when they sent him to prison because she did'nt want that to happen. She is over 18 now and still feels terrible about what happened.
But even beyond this case, there is something very ugly about this hatred. The people who really have problems are mentally ill. You cant tell me that a guy who was perfectly sane and rational would decide of his own free will that he wants to have sex with small children. I see nothing positive coming out of hating people who are ill. I feel pity for them. The ones who are truly dangerously mentally ill need to be treated as such rather than treated as if they were ordinary sane people who just decided one day to go rape a child. But the ones who are not mentally ill and got caught up in an understandable situation should have some hope for redemption. Taking hope away from someone, isolating them from everyone else and subjecting them to institutionalized hatred is not going to help them, in fact that could very well drive otherwise sane men to become irrational and/or severely depressed. This is only going to compund the problems mentally ill people are facing. So I'd say yes, now my friend has been put into a category from which it is acceptable to hate and discriminate against him, because there is no way out for him. Its not the same as discriminating against a bad employee, because a bad employee can change their work ethic and become a good employee. It would be more like taking an employee who make one careless error on their first day and then holding that over their head the rest of their life and making it so no one else can hire them by law. (edited by Jomb on 07-21-06 08:08 PM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Well, first, this is wrong. Wikipedia, as well as other sources, tend to indicate maximum height is not reached in girls until around age 15, and puberty in girls will usually not be over until 17. Furthermore, the how mentally developed the child at the age is also a factor, perhaps more-so than wether puberty is complete or not. I'm going to read the rest of your paragraph later, but can you do me (and probably other people) a favor, and break up your paragraphs a little more in future posts? See how I have two different paragraphs for two different points? It makes what I have to say a lot easier on the eyes and a lot easier to read, and thus hopefully people are more willing to read my posts. I'm not saying you have to use perfect grammar or something, just break it up with some enter keys. EDIT: Originally posted by Jomb I would say you have this backwards, if not completely wrong. First, I think you can make a fairly strong argument for anyone who goes out and does something extreme (IE shooting up a McDonalds for no reason or something) being mentally insane. Second, assuming there are sane people who do wrong things... Why do they deserve more of a chance at rehabilitation than people who are mentally ill? In fact, I feel it should be the other way around. People who are sane and do terrible things are cruel people who have no morals, while people who are mentally ill have may be good-natured people who have other problems. Other problems we can fix, or at least control, but I'm not so sure you can just turn a bad person into a good person. I do not mean to pass judgement on you friend here. I am simply arguing, in the hypothetical, against a justification you used, because I feel it does not hold water. (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-21-06 10:11 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-21-06 10:12 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Whether or not puberty is 100% complete is irrelevant, as it is obviously mostly complete. In most historic societies, almost all our ancestors, regarded adulthood as beginning around 14. It is a very modern concept that we are still virtually infants until 18, then magically full adults. It's over-simplified and out of touch with reality. Some people may not completely finish puberty until they are in their late 20's. Does that mean they are still small children? On a more empirical level, i remember what it's like to be 15, and i had a very strong interest in sex and romance at that age. I was not some innocent child to be conned into sex, as if i did'nt even know what it was. I dont know what wiki says, i rarely consult it. Last time i read the DSM, which was several years ago, to be considered a pedophile one would have to have a deep interest in sex with pre-pubescent children, usually defined as under age 13, while at the same time being over 5 years older than the objects of their lust.
I would agree that under most circumstances someone who engages in extreme and damaging behavior is mentally ill and should be treated as such. The motivation for the crime is the biggest indicator for me as to whether it was mental illness or just bad judgement. If the motivation was monetary, such as killing your wife for insurance money, then maybe you are'nt mentally ill, just greedy. If the motivation was that you killed some random stranger because god told you it was the anti-christ, then maybe you are mentally ill. In our society we are too caught up on getting revenge and as a gut reaction consider many obvously insane people as sane for legal purposes. Being mentally ill does not mean there is no possibility for redemption, it means you are quarantined for your and others safety, in a humane environment, until such a time as you are cured. In theory this is how it should be, whether it works out that way or not is a whole other discussion. But even people who are not mentally ill and make a bad decision deserve a chance at redemption. People change over time. Someone who is a 2-bit thug in their youth may deeply regret that later in life and change. They should be given that opportunity, if the change is genuine. My point is that our system has become so hateful and willfully blind in this area that my friend will never have that chance. period. He could save 100 children from a burning building and instead of being seen as a hero he'd still be seen as "sex offender". Probably his motivation for rescueing the children would be called into question. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6388 days Last view: 6388 days |
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| First off, let me share a bit of Maryland law, which is similar to what you are talking about in your first paragraph:
The age of consent in Maryland is variable depending on who is consenting to who. Once you are 18, you can consent to anyone older than 18, no matter what the age gap. Before you are 16, I believe you can only consent to people under 16... I'm not too sure on this law. But once you are 16 you can consent to people within a certain age range of you... I believe the gap is 2 or 3 years, I forget. Anyways, in that case a 16 year old can still consent to a 18 or 19 year old, but not a 20 year old or a 30 year old or whatever. I pretty much agree with your second paragraph, if I understand it correctly. On your third paragraph... That's a great hypothetical system, but I don't think it works in real life. If you are slimy enough to do legitimately terrible things and get thrown in jail, you are probably slimy enough to fake rehabilitation and get out of jail. Ever see the movie Sawshank Redemption? Remember how the one black guy always sucks up to the parole board and talks about how he found God? Something like that. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6281 days Last view: 6281 days |
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| Age of consent laws are typically very confusing to people who are educated college people, now imagine how confusing they are to high school drop outs. I've lived in many different states over the years and its always different. In at least one state i've lived in my friend would not only not be a "sex offender" but would have committed no crime. Unfortunately in the one he is in he would have been better off killing her than having consentual sex with her.
So then why does'nt my friend fit the profile of paragraph 2? His motivation was love, not greed. People do things under the influence of love that they would'nt ordinarily do, I know i've done things i'm very embarassed by later! There will always be some slimey people who try to take advantage of the system. Most people who have committed a crime dont fit this profile, so its unfair to treat them as if they are all the most heinous drug dealer/murderer. I was actually involved in an internship way back when i was a psych major in which we looked at the relapse rates of people in the area. Guess what, out of over 200 people with sex crimes only 40 or so re-offended over a 10 year period. And that was counting non-sex crimes and petty parole violations as re-offending. Most of those were for being caught with alchohol, getting a DUI, having a playboy magazine, being involved in a fist-fight (most likely provoked into it). Only 7 had actually gone back and done a new sex crime. So even if you take all that petty stuff as being serious, that means there were 160 men who had apparantly changed. Or at least had'nt done it again. So why cant they have a second chance? Some people do change. When i was a teen i was once arrested for shop-lifting. I've never stolen anything since, because i saw the error of my ways. I learned from my mistake. Luckily for me i was a teen and so i got a second chance. My friend will not be so lucky, even if 50+ years go by with no new charges. This is a great tragedy to me and something which our society would be benefitted by correcting (though i doubt we will in this era of fear and paranoia). |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6280 days Last view: 6280 days |
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| I'm a bit unclear here, wite. Are you arguing that statutory rapists being treated like other sex offenders is right, or just?
I don't think statutory rape should be treated the same way as other sex crimes at all. Make it a different category, keep them off the "sex offender" lists, and so forth. Certainly don't give them the whole pariah-leper treatment. I'd even go so far as to say "yes, even if one person is much older". Sure, it's icky, but if a 16 year old chooses to fuck a 30 year old then that's categorically not the same as sexual assault or rape. |
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