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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - WAR! Israel at war with Lebanon |
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Cynthia Uh-huh.                    Since: 11-17-05 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| the reason that airport was bombed was to help prevent the captured soldiers from being moved to Tehran from Beirut.
Good point, but that also doesn't help a lot of people/foreign citizens who'd like to get out of the country right now instead of rolling the dice. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| That's still not a very good reason to bomb a civilian facility...Which is what the main problem is. Besides, who says that they're going to transport the soldiers from Beirut to Tehran? The truth of that is laughable at best. | |||
witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Colin Oh, I agree that Isreal shouldn't be bombing airports for no good reason. Still, the nation is harboring terrorism. When does Isreal get to do something about it? How many people have to die / get kidnapped before Isreal gets to respond? I believe, that since there is no sign of the terrorism stopping in the future, their actions are somewhat justified on those terms. Brash and unforgiving, yes, and somewhat overreacting, and a rather bad idea politically, but still justified. I don't think they're doing anything "wrong" in other words, just... They aren't doing the best thing possible. What I really hope is that no 3rd parties get involved, and Isreal just plows over Lebanon without anyone noticing. I really like that storyline better than a lot of the alternatives. Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password Well... I admit you're right. Let's just say they've not liked each other for a long time. How about that? |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| *ahem*
Israel has had 3 soldiers kidnapped. I can guarantee that hundreds of Palestinians and Lebanese have died in these past few days. Does that sound right to you, for terms of retaliation? You know what storyline I like? Israel not invading Lebanon and kicking at the pissed off beehive that is called militant extremism. Lebanon is a country that has been invaded constantly, by both Israel and Syria. It has gone through a civil war. How can the government reign in extremists when it is a country suffering? This situation is a diplomatic headache. Violence isn't justified. But this is the scary thing. The world derided the PLO as extremist. At times, it was. But pretty much every liberation organization is. It wasn't ideological though. Hamas has not only an ideological bent, a philosophy...it has theology behind it. It is an ideological organization. It taps into the hope that appears even the most desperate of situations presents. It allows the supernatural and the spiritual to seem like roads out of the plight of Palestine. Worrisome, no? Bombings don't stop ideologies. It gives them fire to feed on. |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6309 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| so what would you suggest Ziff? Appeasement? we all know how well that works with radical groups bent on genocide | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password So Isreal has to wait until hundreds of soliders are kidnapped/killed to invade? Lebanon can kidnap/kill up to a certain number of soliders without any retaliation from Isreal? That doesn't seem right, either. This isn't just about those 3 soldiers, but about terrorism that has been brewing in Lebanon for some time. The 3 soldiers have just become an example. Now, I know it will be hard for Lebanon to get rid of their terrorism with Isreal invading. At the same time, they weren't doing a very good job without Isreal invading, either. I'm not saying a full-scale invasion is the RIGHT action to take, but it may wind up being better than NO action. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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Originally posted by geeogree Who are you talking about? The far-right elements of Likud or the extremists in Hamas? Israel has used terrorist tactics against its neighbours in the past. Why are they justified in invading a "terrorist state"? It doesn't work that way in international politics. That is unless you want to breed extremism. |
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Pyris Goomba  Since: 07-05-06 From: Chicago Last post: 6512 days Last view: 6512 days |
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| Ok, hold on, everyone back up. Has it entered any of your arguing minds that the other arab countries have been desperately looking for a reason to attack isreal? And to make matters worse, those same countries will feel perfectly justified in attacking anyone who interfears. This is in no way a one sided war, its just starting out that way. | |||
Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Not true at all. This is pretty onesided and the "vast Arab hordes" of Western imagination aren't really there. Will among the states of the Middle East to attack Israel has well and truly dried up since Israel repeatedly demonstrated their marked military superiority to even the combined forces of several countries... they're not "desperately looking for an excuse" at all. The bigger worry is that radicals in these countries get angry enough that they start demanding their stultified and conservative governments do something, and that this leads to widespread instability and uprising.
Egypt and Jordan won't get involved, they have peace treaties ith Israel and are US-friendly. Iraq's out of play now for obvious reasons. Saudi Arabia doesn't fight wars. The only outside Arab player likely to get involved is Syria, and Israel has demonstrated in the past that it is much stronger than Syria. Among the non-Arab countries in the region, Turkey's an Israeli ally. Iran is also a factor, but I can't see them acting in any direct way. (edited by Arwon on 07-16-06 02:16 AM) |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| Syria is the big problem. I think that the biggest worry is the import of radical jihadists. It is not a state thing. To wage this war is to effectively to wage a war against a belief. There is no solid thing representing this belief. When you wage a war against an abstract concept you run into some very dangerous problems.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with Arwon on the truth that the Arab nations cannot attack Israel and inflict any lasting harm. Israel utilizes various pieces of cutting edge military equipment. Their military is very well trained and very well equipped. Additionally their forces are very experienced in urban warfare which is how this war will be fought. I mean just look at their design mentality. The Merkava is one of the best tanks in the world. Be wary the might of Israel. None of the Arab countries will want anything to do with a fully out military confrontation with Israel. Iran is the only potential external threat. How they're going to do the necessary power projection over that distance is beyond me. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Well, there's a certain amount of tolerance people have for the ones who kidnap their soldiers. I for one am all for Israel taking control of the situation, but it is more imperative they try to compromise with the Hezbollah rather than blow the bloody shit out of them. Terrorists are people too, you know 
In any case, Israel had it coming. But if, say, the tables were turned, I'm sure the situation would be no different. |
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cory21391 Red Cheep-cheep  Since: 04-21-06 From: North Carolina Last post: 6353 days Last view: 6353 days |
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| I ahve 1 little problem with this war.....
Well; they're saying that GAS PRICES could get up to like $10/gallon if more countries (Iran for instance; the 4th leader of oil production/export in the world) and that would really suck ass for us. and our economy. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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It probably wouldn't be so bad if Alberta (A canadian province) didn't ship it's oil across the world and kept it strictly North America only, but I think that might lead to economic problems, no? 
In any case, because we desperately need that oil, the middle east likes to take advantage of that and use this war as an excuse. Which is bullshit, but they can get away with it. |
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RoyChapman Chicken  Since: 07-11-06 From: Amersfoort, European Union Last post: 6505 days Last view: 6505 days |
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Originally posted by geeogree can't believe you are that ignorant... taking into account that israel isn't any better then the terrorists.. what they basicly are themselves too they blew up innocent people all over the middle east, backed by these american (and european... i am ashamed of that) HYPOCRITES, who'd rather blow up and marginallise everything that doesn't reflect they're sick perverted capitalist views then to open negotiations and learn the truth and israel and terrorism have always close friends and allies... in 1948 Irgun a jewish (there was no israel yet) terrorist organisation, blew up british peace-keepers... well before the days of arab terrorism.... these men are now seen as israel's national heroes and even further back in history it's made quite clear in the bible that israel was attacking neighboors, they even slaughtered the ancient people inhabiting the land (the caanites ) , so they have some genocidal tendencies too, like tha downright slaughter of palestinians and now lebanese too which takes place every minute we breathe... they even managed to block an UN inquiry to the massacres at Jenin, a few years ago, this is not a nation of peace-loving hardworking pioneers, no they way the act on is one more close to a nation of soldiers and criminals of war . and the fact they there are under attack themselves.. well during the war we had too blow up the germans to in order to be free.. so basicly it's not terrorism , it is armed resistance. you know what we as the international community should be doing with such an evil, hypocritical nation... we should marginalise and boycot them as much we boycot north korea and iran! (edited by RoyChapman on 07-22-06 03:31 PM) |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom  Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| What none of you seem to understand is the larger picture. The whole point of this war is to eliminate middle-eastern terrorism all-together. Whether they're arab, caucasian, black, oriental, whatever, this is against terrorism.
And why is everyone looking at shit that happened in the past? We need to focus on now, not the past. Right now, Isreal is taking a stand against terrorism as a whole. Get that through your skulls. What I must ask, is would you rather have eventual peace or constantly having terrorist groups that blow shit up for no justified reason at all (other than some fucked up interpretation of Islam and the Kuran)? Now I know that civilians are being killed, but does ANYONE realize that this is war? Casualties happen. Get used to it. Also, for some added information. Two Israeli soldiers were captured, with 12 being killed during the kidnapping. Just so you all know. And Lebanon brought this on themselves. Isreal didn't fire first. Take that into consideration. PS: Oh, and Roy, quit being a commie. Move to China if you're so against capitalism (btw, I'm an American, and I'm proud to be. I thoroughly enjoy the ability to become a self-made billionare without any government assistance. Do you actually enjoy your government taking 6/10 of every dollar you make to pay for the lazy piles of scum in your country who won't get a job?). PPS: Politics suck ass. (edited by Vyper on 07-25-06 07:57 PM) |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| Israel just targeted civilians. Extra-national civilians. Launched 14 artillery shells into a neutral player's base in Beirut. And then dropped two large bombs. That sounds kind of like terrorism to me. You know, targetting people. Causing fear.
The truth of the matter is that both sides of this conflict are so god damned wrong that defending it EITHER WAY is complete idiocy. Vyper, did LEBANON capture those people. Tell me that. Right now. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password I agree with the rest of your post, but even if the Lebenese government didn't sanction anything wrong, they can be guilty of negligence by not attempting to weed terrorists out of their country that do things such as kidnapping. Also... while neither side is "right," one side may be "less wrong." (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-25-06 09:16 PM) |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| There is no morally relativistic stance in this. Wrong is wrong. There is no "slightly less wrong" when it comes to the tactics of the deliberate targetting of civilians. This situation is black and black.
You admitted it yourself. Lebanon wasn't the problem. Effectively, Lebanon's southern area was controlled by Hezbollah. They had to have this position lest it continue under the Israeli occupation. Hezbollah is a powerful military organization and the Lebanese military wouldn't be able to risk trying to uproot it. The country had been wracked by civil war where ethnic, sectarian, and religious infighting led to the stratification of society and attempts at wholesale slaughter of one another. Druze, Christian, Shia, Shi'ite, others still were at each others throat. Bombing the bastions of economic stability in a weak nation is hardly a good way to try to stop a militant radical organization that epouses extremist Islamist views. You know why? Bombing the cities of Tyre and Beirut is going to compound the suffering of the Lebanese people in the south (as well as other depressed regions of the nation) and the Israeli occupation is going to play right into the ubiquitous propoganda of Hezbollah and other militant Islamist organizations. The policy of Israel on the topic of Lebanon is incorrect. The UN policy of limited engagement with Hezbollah while making it accept international conditions with a gradual disarmament and rolling into the military of the nation of Lebanon seems to be the best course of action. Mind you, cowboy diplomacy has been shown to be oh so successful all over the world in the past few years, hm? |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password Would it be too unreasonable to believe that, without any sort of lasting change, Hezbollah would reappear in Lebanon shortly after being pushed out? (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-26-06 12:08 AM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-26-06 12:09 AM) |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| Hezbollah is an organization that could pop up anywhere where there is radical Islamic thought. Bombing Lebanon, invading it, changing the government, etc. to even a totalitarian regime will not silence the movement.
Seriously, what outcome could come of the government cracking down on Hezbollah? It would just force them to change their tactics to something more desperate. |
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