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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Attention: The US Government |
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Deleted User Banned               Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6296 days |
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| This kind of stupidity on part of the US government happens when Republicans are placed into office. | |||
MathOnNapkins  1100  In SPC700 HELL        Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| WOW... thanks for that deep analysis. | |||
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Cymoro Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Cymoro Gaming Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| All I read is asdf's first post in this thread. That's it, as I don't feel like concerning myself with whatever else was said. This whole thing could be derailed by now, but I digress.
First, when you want to complain to the US Government, the first thing to do is to complain to us. This messageboard, comprised of mostly people outside the US, gives you a direct link to the government itself. Right now, the computers at NASA (which is all a conspiracy!) are kicking on after detecting that, and are sending your complaint straight to Dubya himself. Second, I wish people would learn that shit like this is caused by the lobbyists in our government. If you're going to criticize our system, fucking learn it. The whole PiratByran affair that had happened last month was because the MPAA managed to sway some of our officials into thinking that maybe, just maybe, TPB is wrong. Politicians are nothing more than conduits for those that talk to them, and the MPAA has a more concentrated effort than normal people do. I might reply to the rest of the thread later. I'll see what happens. Edit: Originally posted by [GGS Fuck it, this guy fucking ended the whole discussion. How do I compete with Mr. "BUSH IS HITLER HURRRR"? (edited by Cymoro on 07-13-06 12:32 AM) |
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witeasprinwow  Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Cymoro Comparing anyone to Hitler on the basis of morality who was not in direct alliance with Hitler is pretty much retarded. You can make a pretty strong argument for him being far and away the worst human being ever to live, ethically speaking. (Obviously, he was a great orator and all, but that is not what I am talking about.) But comparing a trade sanction to the massacre of over 12 million Jews and Russians? Come on. Also, I would like to take time to point out that nobody has responded to what I said yet: Originally posted by witeasprinwow Asdf, HyperMackarel, Darkness, Cruel Justice, Ailure and now Nietzluber; I am talking directly to you. Please do not flame the USA for protecting their business if you cannot think of a better way that does not end in the USA getting shafted. EDIT: I am sorry if I sound hostile, but it is partially because my country has recieved hostility in this thread from the very first post for no obvious reason. Nobody has given an explanation as to what to do, instead they just talk about how much the USA sucks. Do not get me wrong; I am not a Bush supporter, and I think he has done some messed up things in the past and deserves some hate for those actions. However, this is a topic where I feel the actions are pretty clearly justified and I have not seen anyone give me reason to think otherwise, or even try to make an argument instead of just flaming. (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-13-06 01:16 AM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-13-06 01:17 AM) |
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Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...  Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by witeasprinwowAll I'm wanting is US to leave us alone and not act like the World's big brother. There's a reason why a huge part of the world turned anti-USA lately (I'm not a anti-america. I respect USA, and admire it's culture. Only it's politics annoy me lately.). Then I'm also pissed on my own goverment to apply with their decisions, but acccording to the newspapers it's leading nowhere due to our laws (And the affected sites might get some compansation from the goverment for the downtime), which aren't as harsh about thoose things. I think Copyright and Patents needs to be overhauled. And that the music industry needs to get on with the times, and stop with all the DRM shit. Alot of people would download songs legally. The success of iTunes proves this (it have some DRM, but it's not very intrusive from what I heard.) And sorry if I did offend you wite, but in politics we're very critize of ourself. You should just know how much I complain on my own goverment too. US is a very very right-wing nation, but comparing with Nazis is going way too far Cruel Justice. I yet have to hear about the US practicing massacres. :/ |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Ailure Allright; This was a good post. I still disagree, but I'm starting to understand where you are coming from. Thank you. I think the US gets involved in a lot of foreign affairs because they're one of a few countries that has a lot to lose. Since after the American Civil War, and especially post-World War 1, America has been one of the most powerful countries in the world. At times, probably the most powerful. (This is changing again though... Different story.) I believe that any country put in the USA's spot would be taking action to try and perserve that power, which could mean protecting business. I agree that the copyright rules need a big overhaul, and I hope that in the next 20 years or so we'll be able to switch music and even movies and games to a downloading-based format. Still, I don't see any sort of method where sites like TPB can exist and artists/producers can still get their fair cut of the money. Forget country; I am sure that there are Swedish bands getting ripped off by TPB just as well. I wasn't really that offended, just sorta pissed. Everyone was speaking their opinion out, but nobody was really giving reasons why. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Well it's not quite on the level of invading Latin American countries to depose regimes that threaten the United Fruit Company or sugar interests or something... but the difference is only in degree, not type. It smacks of the same conviction that "protecting our business interests" is more important than fussy considerations like sovereignty and self-determination. | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon While I'm sure nobody would make a fuss about this if there was no money involved... I still disagree in the hypothetical. Protecting copyrights is something that EVERY nation should be interested in. Doesn't matter if you are an American musician, a French artist, a Russian film-maker... Whatever. If your culture produces anything of value that can be put into a computer media format, then copyright infringement makes a negative impact on that country. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| Copy-right infringement is what puts art into a business. That's what pisses me off about this. It makes culture stagnant. If it weren't for these vast underground networks of music geeks and film buffs trading flicks and tunes then the world, at least for me, would be dry as hell. I can't afford to constantly buy 40 dollar CDs and 80 dollar DVDs from Russia or Sweden. More over I often times can't *legally* acquire certain nations' music and film. Sure, I could go to some Middle Eastern bazar styled store in the DT core and get a boot leg. But yeah.
I'm a musician and a film maker. When DRM and other propreitary formats that restrict rights on computers start locking me down...that bothers me. I can't afford to buy massive program suites to continue my hobby. This whole thing stinks. Business is great, go for it. However music isn't just a business. It is art. The RIAA and others need to remember that. A comparison to Hitler isn't justified. But really...is restricting access to music to only those that can afford it any better than burning books? |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| That's not true wite. China and Russia make quite a lot of economic gain based on pirated things...
Anyways, the copyright debate is a whole other one from the national sovereignty one. Intelletual Property needs a massive overhaul. The original point of patents and copyright laws was to encourage innovation by ensuring a return to creators and inventors and artists for their work. These days, though, intellectual property laws are often used to stifle innovation and proliferation of ideas. We see Disney subverting the lawmaking process to their own ends and we see fair use laws lagging well behind the digital age. The best example of the anachronism of intelletual property laws is in patented scientific techniques and processes. Research institutes can patent these and decree exclusive use to whatever company pays them the most. The result is that research is hampered by people not having access to new techniques and processes. The solution is to make these patents forcbly nonexclusive... research institute sets conditions (you pay us X for using it) and anyone who meets them can use the process or technique. As for copyrighting artistic work, I think Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg has the right idea. Copyright doesn't work how it's intended to, and we should change the rules to actually reflect the way it actually works now:
(edited by Arwon on 07-16-06 02:06 AM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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| Ziff and Arwon... I completely agree that the laws involving this kind of thing need an update. I am just saying that this trade sanction is justified because piracy of material will hurt art forms no matter what laws are in place.
I mean, yes, I do believe art should be art and not a business... But at the same time, it's hard to say that while working two shifts at Burger King so you can afford a place to live and all the things you need to use to record. At some point the people who put their lives into art have to recieve some sort of compensation, so they can dedicate themselves to their art and still have a roof to live under. This means that someone has to pay them... Which means it has to cost SOMETHING. Unless you want say music and movies and art is some sort of inalienable right like an education, but I can only see that bringing all sorts of nasty government-regulated stuff into play. It's interesting to note that, while some artists support the RIAA, some of them do not and a few major label bands actually encourage their fanbase to pirate their music. For example, The Offspring leaked one of their albums to the internet by themselves, and actually got in a lot of shit with their record label because of it. I still haven't quite made up my mind about these kinds. By the way, Arwon, the bit about China was genius  |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Why is it justified to impose trade sanctions on a perfectly harmless little country because you don't like one tiny group in that country's behaviour? Isn't that a massively disproportionate response and hypocritical, since they're not sanctioning more powerful countries over similar minor annoyances? Why Sweden and not the EU or China? | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Because the government is not doing anything to control that group's behavior. It's not the artist's fault if the government of some country isn't monitoring their own people. Also, I'd like to note that it is just a threatened trade sanction. I don't believe anything has been officially done yet. TPB is one of the most well-known sites. It's a website for piracy that's easy to access from most countries, and as such shutting it down is the easiest ways to cut down on piracy. Forget what we would do when the biggest target is in a more powerful or hostile country, that bridge will be crossed when we come to it. Right now we are dealing with the #1 priority. I'm sure it's easy to call it a "minor" annoyance to a country as a whole, but to many artists on indie labels it can be a pretty major problem. EDIT: Let me ask you my question again: Is there any better way to deal with TPB than threatening a sanction? You seem to be saying that we just let piracy persist unchecked. Why? It hurts individual, innocent citizens of many countries. (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-16-06 03:25 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Simple. Behave like a proper country and accept your limitations when dealing with other sovereign states, instead of using your control over international organisations such as the WTO to bully other countries. The threat of WTO sanctions is a massively disproportionate response.
Moreover, as a result of these threats, apparently the Swedish government broke its own laws by specifically ordering its agencies to intervene in this case. It's against Swedish law for ministers to order government agencies to intervene in specific cases, and it appears that in kowtowing to the US's demands here, the Swedish government broke its own laws. In doing so, the US has likely entrenched TPB in Sweden by discrediting the Government case against it and enhancing the strength of the anti-copyright political movement there. Is it any wonder, in such a situation, people would chafe against such sleazy behaviour by the US government? I object strongly to the threat of WTO sanctions being used to change country's behaviour for trivial reasons. I consider the constant abuse of this facet of the WTO one of the worst features of international trade... I dunno how much you know about the WTO and international trade, but hanging this sword over various countries' heads is a favourite tactic of large rich nations (mainly the US and EU) to change countries' behaviour in ways beneficial to them. Examples we've seen repeatedly in the 2rd world are stuff like forcing them to open markets to dumping and unfair competition, scrap environmental protection and labour laws as "barriers to trade", and all that sort of "free trade" sleaze that I'm sure you're well versed in. I object on principle to such a usage of the WTO to bludgeon countries in this manner. There is very seldom a case for WTO sanctions, and this ain't it. I would argue that the best one would be sanctions against wealthy countries whose agricultural protectionism is pretty directly killing people in the third world. Compared to THAT sort of an imperative, "some fucking Swedes are running a website that's letting people make unlicensed copies of Teen Cumsluts 5" doesn't quite cut it. The idea that even a small 1st world country can be cowed into violating its own laws by this threat of WTO sanctions is disheartening and even alarming. To use an example closer to home for me... what's to stop the US from, say, acting on its belief that Australian quarantine laws are a barrier to trade, and threatening us with WTO action if we don't give their produce easier entry to our markets? What's to protect any of us, if even proudly independent and wealthy Sweden can be threatened? This sort of behaviour is just the tip of the iceberg as far as unjust trade practises go and it represents a worrying willingness to undermine any country whose policies one doesn't like. So that's my trade based objection to this behaviour. It's sleazy, bullying behaviour of a type we've seen all too frequently in the halls of international trade. ---------- Then there's the actual idea of how much harm is being done. I strongly disagree with the contention that internet downloading is a major loss of revenue for the music or movie industries, and thus I disagree that significant damage is being done. This is a myth with no hard evidence to back it up that I have ever seen. Again, the biggest problem of international copyright infringement is the vast industry of piracy FOR PROFIT that takes place in places like Russia and China. Compared to this, a Torrent indexing website where people infringe copyright (not even FOR PERSONAL PROFIT) is small beans. Likewise, your contention that smaller artists suffer, let alone suffer disproportionately from bittorrent strikes me as lacking evidence at best, and flat-out wrong at worst. Anything to back that up, or is it just idle speculation? I'd argue that Metallica and Kid Rock have a lot more to lose than the Decemberists or Les Savy Fav ever did. Moreover, there's plenty of perfectly legitimate usages of Bittorrent which are unacceptable collateral damage to this fight. Uses such as accessing old TV episodes, stuff not available in your country, fansubbed anime, legitimately released promotional torrents such as SXSW's, bunches of other authorised usages of content, are also traded on Bittorrent servers. There's a powerful legal argument that merely enabling torrent trading by providing an indexing site is not a crime, and that attacking a torrent site (a mere indexing service) as a whole unfairly hits them for these things as well. Such attacks are unfair restraint of trade in ideas and artistic output, and a perfect example of why copyright laws as they stand are outdated, stifling and unworkable and used usually just used as tools to bludgeon people by a content distribution industry that's terrified of finding itself rendered as obsolete by new technology as the sheet music industry once was. I'm sorry, but Bittorrent is not so obscene and morally objectionable that the use of WTO trade sanctions to get your way is even remotely justifed. (edited by Arwon on 07-16-06 05:13 AM) |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Basically, you are saying that America should do nothing and bite the bullet for Sweden's sake? They have some sort of right as a self-determining nation to decide wether they are going to rip American citizens off or not? Originally posted by Arwon I'm not sure how much of that is really a direct result of the threatened trade sanction. They could have dealt with it through their legal process. It seems like a failure by Swedish politicans to me. Originally posted by Arwon I'm not for the unwarranted bullying of other countries by any means; What I am saying is that TPB is clearly wrong, it is hurting artists as people and not just faceless corporations. I'm not trying to justify America bullying anyone, and I'm sure there are many legitimate cases of bullying which happen under much more selfish circumstances. I don't really want to talk about what America has done to the third world; I have nothing to say about it other than "It sucks," and it doesn't really see why it relates to this particular case. As such, I think this is outside the bounds of what we are discussing. Originally posted by Arwon This is a fair question, but again, it's a bit outside the scope of what we are talking about here. It's a fair topic and a fair concern, but not one I am interested in talking about here. Originally posted by Arwon First off, I don't see what this has to with wether it's right to take action or not. If they are doing something wrong, they are doing something wrong, and deserve to get slapped on the wrist for it. Second, like I said, is America going to go into China and shut down all those shops themselves? TPB is a good target because it is hugely accessable and hugely popular, probably moreso than any single piracy shop in China or Russia, and it is an easily accessable target. Originally posted by Arwon I think it's a pretty well-known fact in the music world that indie artists get much more of their money from royalties while major label artists have a lot less in royalties and a lot more in signing bonuses. I don't own any books on the topic; I am a musician. This is just something you learn when you're a musician, like what a major chord is. Wikipedia agrees with me, if that means anything to you. Look at 3.1 and 3.2. If you are talking in terms of overall money lost on piracy, and not just %... Then I am going to say that you are probably right that major labels have more to lose, but that you are probably looking at the wrong numbers. Metallica can buy mansions made out of gold anyways; Indie label bands can have much more practical uses for the money they are losing to piracy. Therefore, indie bands get hurt more, even if they do lose less money. Originally posted by Arwon If those are completely legal (I'm not sure the legality of many of them), then why have them on the site that has other, illegal material on it? This isn't a fight against bittorrent. This is a fight against certain uses of bittorrent and other downloading services. |
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Bane King Rope  Since: 11-22-05 Last post: 6341 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| I hate it as much as you guys do but the truth is that piracy is stealing period.
Let's say a XMEN 3 is $15 in a retail store but you don't want to pay that much. Would you steal it infront of everybody? Would you go home and download it from the privacy of your home? This brings the question if you could commit a crime without anyone knowing and get away with it, would you? The obvious answer in this case is yes. You have obtained XMEN3 without paying for it. Sure the actors and flim crew have already been paid but what about the company? They paid them upfront for services rendered expecting to make the money back through sales but if they loose money, then the badass moive floped. We can stand back and spite the US for stepping up preasure but like Alucard says, "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Basically, If no one steps up to stop it then the company runs the risk of going under because it becomes so cosure that everyone does it. Piracy hurts not only the US econemy but globally as well. I'm guilty of downloading too but the fact of the matter is piracy is stealing. If the goverenment aren't going to step up to stop piracy then who will? The Movie and software company? They have no power. They can't do shit except go back home with their tails between their legs. I say right on for someone to step up to the uglies of the world. It just happend to be the US again because nobody feels it's their responsiblity. If it's not the goverenment's reponsiblity to stop theft then who will? |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| Iti s like looking at the arguments of a 4 year old. Fascinating. The lack of knowledge and insight is astounding. | |||
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Why is the WTO and the nature of international trade outside the scope of what we're talking about? To me it's one of the central points. The US has the ability to wield this behemoth of an organisation to threaten people in a way other countries do not. This is not fair, and I object to the WTO being used like this on principle.
Secondly, the point about the degree of harm is very very relevant. If the harm of downloading is minor then WTO sacntions are not remotely justified. WTO sanctions are a very very drastic measure that, as I have already argued (and you haven't disagreed with), should only be used in dire situations of profound injustice. Unless it can be conclusively demonstrated that this is doing direct and severe harm, to such an extent that America's industry's livelihood is directly threatened in a serious way, to such an extent that it is crippling them, then I cannot accept this kind of bullying and over-the-top tactics. The WTO should not be used lightly. And as for harm to indie bands... I accept that indie labels get more from royalties... but this still isn't evidence in itself that downloading harms them to a greater degree. Downloading isn't a zero-sum-game, no-one automatically loses from digital duplication of media... it ain't stealing. Computation of lost royalties assumes that every downloader would otherwise have purchased said album/single, which is far from true--many would simply have never bothered to listen to them at all. It's not an automatic that downloading harms smaller acts more. I'd like to see a study of what % of people downloading a song or album end up becoming fans and in some way spending money towards that band, but to my knowledge no such statistical study has ever been done and so we're all pissing in the wind here. Is it better to be heard for free or not to be heard? Difficult dilemma, one you can't answer any more than I can, but it's the reality of the modern day world... and surely smaller acts are more likely to go with the former, that the chance of wider exposure is actually a proportionately bigger deal for smaller acts than it is for the biggest ones. Given this inconclusivity and the fact that indie labels and bands are seemingly the ones most flexible and willing to use downloading and the new distributive media... I don't think that crying indie is a legitimate argument as to why bittorrent sites are so bad.
Yes, it is very much a fight against bittorrent. Do you think the people issuing cease-and-desist orders and storming these places' offices care about distinguishing between differnet types of content? No, they see downloading, and downloading is bad, so they try to crush it. It's the same way that the recording industry behaves more or less as though the very concept of an MP3 is threatening and dangerous to them. They confuse the medium of exchange with the usage of that medium. Why put it there? If someone wants a torrent to spread widely, they go to where the torrents are. Overall: Someone might manage to squish this site and that site here and there, but overall, it's like whack-a-mole and it's like holding back the tides with your hands. When it's easy to get free music on the internet, it's going to happen. This is an act of desperation we're seeing here, a terrified industry using its influence to get a government to undertake sleazy and bullying behaviour on its behalf, damn the consequences and damn all sense of proportionality... and it'll have little overall effect. Technology is changing how distribution of media works. It's changing everything as technology does, but those that have the most to lose are not the creators, but the distributors who are becoming somehwat obsolete. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6404 days Last view: 6404 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon What I am saying is that I am focused in on this one event, and not interested in how the WTO is seen or handled globally. Even if the WTO is being abused by those in power in every other circumstance, I still say that this use is justified based on who it can protect; Individual citizens. Yes, I know that the American government would never take this kind of action solely to protect individuals, and that corporations play the biggest role in this happening. That still doesn't mean that they aren't doing something right as a by-product of sorts. Originally posted by Arwon Is there anything LESS dire than a mere threat of a sanction that could move Sweden to do something? I doubt America will go through with it, anyways; politicians play games like this all the time. If there is a more mild manner in which to deal with this, let me know. You have not suggested anything but "Do nothing," and that is still unjust to the artists who are trying to make a living. Not to mention that, if America doesn't show that it will hunt down internet piracy, I'm sure the number of people who download would skyrocket because they won't be afraid of getting caught anymore. Do not say that we should just politely ask that TPB be taken down. That has been done before, and it is in a section of their website being made fun of. You have to have something to set the wheels in motion. I don't see how this is bullying, either. A bully deprives a kid of his lunch money. Isn't that what TPB is doing? Originally posted by Arwon I agree. Just based on what I see people doing, I would guess it's about 50%. Just a guess. Also, come to think of it, I have a point you didn't make; My argument was based on the assumption that downloading is spread proportionally across both major and indie labels. I'm not sure if this is so true; A lot of fans of smaller bands are typically more loyal and have a better understand of what a musician's life is like, and are probably more likely to buy CD's instead of downloading. Originally posted by Arwon Indie bands still need to make money to live and retire. I think that it is better to be free and heard than not free and not heard, but there is a middle ground here that you don't seem to recognize. Most bands now have a selection of 3-6 songs on their website that you can play again and again for free, not to mention sites like Myspace will usually have a large selection of any one band playable for free. To paraphrase Bruce Dickinson: Downloading should be a taste of what a band is like, sorta like those people who hold food samplers at food stores. You can have a taste for free, but you have to pay for the whole thing. If sites like TPB are up and running, it forces bands to either be more heard or more free, because if people don't like they price they'll go download it elsewhere. By the way, TPB is not usually what indie labels have in mind when they say the internet is "new distributive media." They're talking I-Tunes and the new paid Napster and stuff. I'm pretty sure you know this, I'm just making it absoutely clear, as your post did not. Originally posted by Arwon Obviously no, but that is TPB's fault for not monitoring the torrents they host. If TPB only hosted old text-based adventure games whose copyrights had expired, I doubt anybody would care. Originally posted by Arwon Then TPB needs a better way to monitor what torrents are being uploaded. Instead of, you know, posting all the lawsuits they get on the internet for people to laugh at. Originally posted by Arwon I agree that things have to change with the RIAA and MPAA and that whole crowd, but I still believe in their right to try and shut down all the piracy sites. It may be futile, but to some extent it has to be done. I can't imagine any reliable system where anything that can be put into a digital format is fair to be shared. Forget musicians, what could happen to the video game industry? Originally posted by Bane King You, sir, are either a comedic genius or beyond my comprehension. --- EDIT: Arwon, since we have said so much, spread over so much space, and since you were kind enough to summarize your own statements for me at the bottom of your last post, I guess I should do the same. Obviously, I think this is justified. Not really because I care about some corporate suits and their right to charge money for things, although I do recognize that right. More because I care about the artists who are trying to survive off sales. I think the fact that they are being cheated out of money by a foreign country that is willing to knowingly host such activites is enough reason for SOME action to be taken against the country. I am not happy to simply see these artists suffer. My real reason for supporting the threat of a trade sanction is because it is the least damaging action that could be taken that I can think of. I'm not a fan of trade sanctions or anything, it's just better than doing nothing. Sweden and TPB has been asked lots of times nicely, now something or other has to be actually done to let them know that we really do care about this topic. Again, if you know of something America can do to coerce TPB down without using the WTO as a means, I am open to it. (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-16-06 06:59 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-16-06 07:01 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-16-06 07:02 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 07-16-06 07:45 PM) |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6487 days Last view: 6487 days |
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| From my own experience...when I'm able to download music I'm more likely to buy CDs. When I'm not able to I simply stop listening. That might just be me, though. During the school year I downloaded over 100 films from Bittorent. I still went out and bought Criterion Collection DVDs and indie flicks. |
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