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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - US troops kill pregnant woman in Iraq |
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Crashman Grizzo                   Since: 12-26-05 From: Maine Last post: 6333 days Last view: 6333 days |
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| Whoa. and I mean, wow shitty. The woman was about to give birth, and her car wouldnt stop at a checkpoint, so the troops opened fire on it. There is an investigation ongoing about whether it was a "good" shoot, or if the troops did'nt give proper warning to slow down and stop.
My first thought was simply: what a damn situation for the troopers. I mean, they are conditioned to kill, to protect their fellow soldiers and tehy nearly atuomatically react to anything that might be a percieved threat. I mean, look at it: speeding car, a history of terrorism and roadside bombs. Damn. I'm not sure what I would have done, but for right now I feel bad for both the women and the troops. Something that could have been an accident, and killing a pregnant woman and her baby. It makes me wonder what ew are fighting for over there. |
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Scatterheart Paratroopa   Since: 11-18-05 From: Sydney, Australia Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Sounds awful, but I'd probably have done the same thing.
Speeding cars all over the world are considered a threat, which is why the police pull them over (whenever they're actually around  ).
In a country like Iraq, they need to up their game alot more! Anyone could be a potential threat. The stupid woman should've listened to orders (providing there were some in the first place. In which there wasn't...then shame on the U.S. army.) |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I wonder exactly what it is that makes this particular case of collateral damage so much more relevant than any other one.
At any rate, I definitely think that (assuming the warning was in fact given) the soldiers were right in this case. A lot of violence occurs over there, and a speeding car is probably one of the more significant indicators that it could happen. The failure to listen to orders only compounds it. It is a bit of a catch-22, though. Fire on the car and risk killing innocents... or let it go and risk dying along with other innocents. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom  Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Sounds like a typical war-time casualty. These things happen. If they would have stopped, they would have been let through without being fired upon. It's not the marines' fault they were doing their job. | |||
Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| I haven't heard of the specific incident, but there's been similar incidents before involving checkpoints. This specific case sounds like it was a regerettable tragedy, but it should be pointed out that we know civilians are being deliberately killed as well.
Just today there's been new accusations based on the BBC footage about US troops deliberately killing civilians in a house? And there's already another incident with Marines rampaging against civilians, which has prompted the Iraqi government to call for new rules of engagement. Given the number of time these things have happened and what we've heard about the attitudes and behaviour of some of the soldiers, by now, we really do know that civilians are being carelessly killed and at times deliberately killed... the Iraqi government is having a go at the US forces, and other coalition forces (particularly the Brits) aren't happy. (edited by Arwon on 06-02-06 08:04 AM) |
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Scatterheart Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 From: Sydney, Australia Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Meanwhile, our Prime Minister continues to kiss ass, and offer whatever support it can to the U.S.
Sure, having the U.S as an ally is all good...but havn't we done enough to ensure friendship? How much longer does this crap need to go on for? Which raises the question: How much longer will this "war" last for? |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| To be honest, kowtowing to the US's idiot foreign policy is, at this stage, pretty low on the reasons John Howard sucks. To me, Australia's lack of an independant or sensible foreign policy is a bipartisan bit of dumbness. Beazley probably would have joined the war and Crean never really outlined a Labor position.
Blaming Howard for our foreign policy situation is a bit silly. With things like: workchoices and all the shittiness that entails, refugees, the welfare system (middle class welfare and shockingly high effective tax rates and disincentives to work at the lower end), greenhouse emissions and fucking COAL IS THE FUTURE, the scorched earth approach to student unionism, his wretched cultural conservatism and jingoistic nationalism, the Australian Wheat Board shenanigans, the anti-terror and sedition laws, there's plenty other more salient reasons to hate the fucker than just Iraq. |
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Scatterheart Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 From: Sydney, Australia Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6296 days |
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True that.
I was just trying to stay a little bit on topic... *Runs away and cries in jealousy at the intelligence of the previous post* LOWER TAX THRESH-HOLDS PLZ!!! 
Work placement agreements, WTF? Roving with Rove? (Nah, Rove's cool.) Kim Beazley is like one huge cuddly teddy bear though. Never really hear much about him on the news... Is he really so bad as to result in Howard being re-elected...(AGAIN?!  ) |
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Tarale    2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Scatterheart You have a SCARY idea of teddy bears. 
(I also cannot live up to the thoughtfulness of Arwon's post) |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6337 days Last view: 6337 days |
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Originally posted by Scatterheart I understand that these soldiers are conditioned to kill and it was likely instinct, but don't you think that comment is just a little harsh. If a living creature was coming out of my nads I doubt I'd be very happy about being hassled by foreign occupants. Plus, it often takes a very long time for cars to pass these checkpoints. |
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MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| This may sound very callous... but if you've been living under such conditions for 2+ years, it's just common sense not to drive past a checkpoint where people are aiming guns at you and WILL kill you. Cops in the US assist in births in cars all the time. It seems to me that military personnel are likely trained to help out in such situations. Unless I hear anything to contradict this, I consider the driver of the car to be at fault. | |||
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkinsNo need for any more posts, really. That sums it up perfectly. PS: You guys need to look at it from the Marines' point of view. If these civilians were hostile towards you, even unarmed (which the marines' probably didn't know), you can't take the chance of being killed. (edited by Vyper on 06-03-06 02:24 PM) |
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beneficii Broom Hatter Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6299 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| MON,
To keep this discussion going: perhaps the populace doesn't trust the U.S. military to help them with these things? Perhaps that may be a sign that we should pack up and go home, lest we continue to have these tragedies. |
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Sabishii Red Paragoomba Since: 02-26-06 From: Georgia Last post: 6463 days Last view: 6463 days |
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| For that matter, who even knows if the driver was calm enough to think clearly? I've heard rush to the hospital stories entailing everything from forgetting the woman in labor to forgetting which side of the road you're supposed to drive on.
It's entirely plausible that he could have lost the sense to stop at the checkpoint, as people often do in emergencies(need we repeat the plethora of "What's the number for 911/(your country's emegency number)?" stories?). Also an interesting idea, beneficii, that maybe the driver didn't trust the guards at the check point. I'm not entirely sure that I would want someone I didn't know was medically certified and who might not even speak my language to put their hands on someone in my charge, doubly so if it were my significant other. The whole idea is even more repulsive being a woman, I'm not enthused by the idea of having a total stranger try to help me give birth under those conditions, particularly not when theres a chance I could go to a hospital instead. It's a sad story, one of those cases where there's no one you can really blame. I'd call it an act of Murphy's Law - If it can go wrong it will, and in the worst possible order. |
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Billiards Koopa Red Paratroopa  Since: 04-21-06 From: Far away from a carnival, one ride tried to kill me (no lie) Last post: 6503 days Last view: 6503 days |
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Originally posted by Scatterheart Until Bush gets the freaking boot. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| In all honesty, I don't think the driver gave a flying shit about the american checkpoint. He was getting to the hospital before the woman gave birth in his car.
It's what I'd do if I was living under an extremist government for 4 years. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6488 days Last view: 6488 days |
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| Why in the flying hell would you trust a dude pointing an M16 at you and a pregnant woman in your car? Do you honestly think the majority of the population love having the occupational force running about and turning into fucking Crusaders? Face it. Iraqis aren't go to pay any kindness nor harbour any trust to a group of people that are willing to (in revenge, no less) kill 24 innocent civilizians or randomly slaughter 11 women and children. You know? For the hell of it. They trust them even less because they're an external force that is bringing an ideology that is alien to most of them. In addition they're seen as anti-ethical and aren't doing anything to prove that wrong. Again, I ask. Why in the flying hell would you trust these people? | |||
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NetSplit Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6458 days Last view: 6458 days |
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| Because if you speed through their checkpoints, they're going to kill you. | |||
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6488 days Last view: 6488 days |
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| And stopping at the check points gets you killed too! Who knows, maybe that Marine is going to blow your brains out all over the road because his buddy was killed in a bombing yesterday. Why in the FUCK would you trust the occupational force in your nation? Moreover, the damned Iraqi police force is so infiltrated by the insurgency that when they set up check points on the road the people crossing them are kidnapped and other shit. Again, it is a war zone. You don't trust those that are attacking your nation and killing your countrymen in revenge killings.
Americans didn't trust the British in the Revolution. Why should Iraqis trust the Americans during their occupation? |
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Billiards Koopa Red Paratroopa Since: 04-21-06 From: Far away from a carnival, one ride tried to kill me (no lie) Last post: 6503 days Last view: 6503 days |
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| All millitary check points should have medical centers to avoid tragic things like this. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - US troops kill pregnant woman in Iraq |
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