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Christmas Tree or Holiday Tree?
Supposedly on the city of Boston website called the annual tree lighting ceremony a "the annual holiday tree lighting ceremony" but there is some hoopla over it from the people, the mayor, and even the ACLU
Christmas Tree
 
 91.3%, 21 votes
Holiday Tree
 
 4.3%, 1 vote
Other
 
 4.3%, 1 vote
Multi-voting is disabled. 23 users have voted.

User Post
spel werdz rite









Since: 11-19-05

Last post: 6296 days
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Posted on 11-27-05 05:01 AM Link | Quote
My little sister calls it a "Mismis tee."
Aurxix

Flurry


 





Since: 11-23-05
From: Canada

Last post: 6741 days
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Posted on 11-27-05 10:26 AM Link | Quote
All little kids have a new word for everything! god bless them!
MathOnNapkins

1100

In SPC700 HELL


 





Since: 11-18-05

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Posted on 11-27-05 03:02 PM Link | Quote
(link was stretching tables)

HO HO HO

That's the link to the Reuter's article. I looked up 6 other articles on the subject and not one of them mentioned the ACLU being involved in any way*. To be honest with you, to me Holiday Tree == Christmas Tree. How many other fucking holidays could we be referring to here, eh? And besides that, the city officials seem to be okay calling it a Christmas Tree. Just b/c you change its name in a ceremony doesn't mean it can't still be a Christmas Tree.

The ACLU has done stuff to mess with Christmas in past years, but it seems that this year people are just trying to create a controversy over NOTHING.

*Of the websites that featured the Reuters article and commentary, primarily conservative websites like STOPTHEACLU.COM (surprise surprise) were the ones to drop the name of the ACLU either via staff comments, or user comments. If someone can find out if the ACLU actually has anything to do with this I'd like to see it, b/c I like juicy gossip like that.

(edited by MathOnNapkins on 11-27-05 02:03 PM)
Trapster

King Dedede



 





Since: 11-19-05
From: Sweden

Last post: 6403 days
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Posted on 11-27-05 04:02 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Alastor the Stylish
You say Christmas, I say X-Mas. And that thing is an X-Mas tree.


You say X-mas tree, I say Julgran.

Oh, and donīt try to figure out what it is because itīs swedish.
MissingName

Micro-Goomba


 





Since: 11-22-05
From: Fort Worth

Last post: 6730 days
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Posted on 11-28-05 12:33 AM Link | Quote
A Christmas tree. Why would it be called a Holiday tree? Isn't the tree traditionally related to Christmas, and not the other holidays? I mean...does Hannakuh or Kwanzaa use a tree (and if they do, I apologize in advanced)?

I think we should just rename ourselves "Human" and just get the assimilation over already.
Clockworkz

Birdon


 





Since: 11-18-05

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Posted on 11-28-05 06:30 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by spel werdz rite
This is really sad.
I actually found that to be quite hilarious. You see, as Pagan as I am, I still celebrate Christmas (as well as all the other Sabbats). Not for the religios jibbah jabbah, but because my whole family comes together, and I get to see their smiling faces upon opening a gift I bought for them. It's the one day that there is peace on Earth and good will towards man

(edited by Clockworkz on 11-28-05 08:20 PM)
KiLLMasTer

Red Goomba








Since: 12-02-05
From: West Va

Last post: 6421 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 06:40 AM Link | Quote
looks like a Tree with crap on it to me lol


But you never know
Vystrix Nexoth



 





Since: 11-26-05
From: Cascadia

Last post: 6722 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 06:06 PM Link | Quote
Holiday Tree. The time of the year in which Christmas occurs also sees many other festivities and holidays such as Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and for the Winter Solstice.

If a tree is to be erected in a public place in an official capacity, it ought not place one particular religion/culture above all others.

Besides, "Holiday Tree" is not demeaning to Christmas... unless you will assert, like the Christians in Boston, that Christmas is not, in fact, a holiday (how else does it make any sense to file suit against the city for "misrepresentation"?)... it still represents Christmas, just not exclusively Christmas.

I find it amusing how Christians are in such a huff over this issue, as they tend to be when they are moved from "superior to all others" to "not superior to all others".

And as for Christmas, surely they don't mean that its value and worth is contingent on its being placed superior to holidays that aren't Christmas, are they? If they do mean that, then all it would take to destroy Christmas would be to simply acknowledge other holidays as being equally worthy. And that would make for a pretty pathetic holiday, certainly not one worthy of being placed above all others in the first place.

Though, that would only destroy the Christian interpretation of it... even devout Atheists celebrate it as a secular holiday of family and gift-giving, and certainly commercial types will wring every last drop of blood from it, like they do. These days, its significance to Christianity is such a minor thing compared to its significance to all. Thus it's not Christianity-specific anymore, and so its tree ought not be named as such.

Holiday Tree.
Chaosman000









Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6678 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 09:21 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
Some basic facts for ya.

2+2=4

The world is round.

That's a fucking christmas tree. What's the big deal? =/


i agree 127.3333333333333--->% percent with this guy
Thexare

Metal battleaxe
Off to better places








Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6295 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 09:56 PM Link | Quote
Before we begin, I'm an atheist, so not only might it seem unusual that I still stubbornly call it a Christmas tree, I may possibly be missing or incorrect about a few details - if I am, please inform me of this.

Originally posted by Vystrix Nexoth
And as for Christmas, surely they don't mean that its value and worth is contingent on its being placed superior to holidays that aren't Christmas, are they?


Do any other Winter holidays involve decorated trees? None I know of. Yet the tree is supposed to include those... why, exactly?

Originally posted by the same guy
even devout Atheists celebrate it as a secular holiday of family and gift-giving, and certainly commercial types will wring every last drop of blood from it, like they do.


For the first one, you're almost right. But, it just so happens that most of us have largely Christian families, and if we're going to set aside one day to family togetherness and gift-giving, it may as well be one that the rest of them already have. Additionally, this does not undermine the significance of the holiday to Christians, and I see it therefore as quite irrelevant - the day is still more important to them than to *insert non-Christian group here*. Secondly, that's business, any chance they get to squeeze more money out of you is one that they'll jump on. They don't care that it's a holiday, however, and therefore the relvance of that to the Christmas/Holiday Tree situation is completely nonexistant.

Originally posted by , yep, him again
These days, its significance to Christianity is such a minor thing compared to its significance to all. Thus it's not Christianity-specific anymore, and so its tree ought not be named as such.


Waitwaitwait. You're telling me that because non-Christians may participate in this holiday and businesses may exploit it, it's no longer significant to Christians? Riiight. That makes sense, doesn't it?

Wait, no it doesn't.
emcee

Red Super Koopa


 





Since: 11-20-05

Last post: 6295 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 10:21 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vystrix Nexoth
Holiday Tree. The time of the year in which Christmas occurs also sees many other festivities and holidays such as Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and for the Winter Solstice.

If a tree is to be erected in a public place in an official capacity, it ought not place one particular religion/culture above all others.

Besides, "Holiday Tree" is not demeaning to Christmas... unless you will assert, like the Christians in Boston, that Christmas is not, in fact, a holiday (how else does it make any sense to file suit against the city for "misrepresentation"?)... it still represents Christmas, just not exclusively Christmas.

I find it amusing how Christians are in such a huff over this issue, as they tend to be when they are moved from "superior to all others" to "not superior to all others".

And as for Christmas, surely they don't mean that its value and worth is contingent on its being placed superior to holidays that aren't Christmas, are they? If they do mean that, then all it would take to destroy Christmas would be to simply acknowledge other holidays as being equally worthy. And that would make for a pretty pathetic holiday, certainly not one worthy of being placed above all others in the first place.

Though, that would only destroy the Christian interpretation of it... even devout Atheists celebrate it as a secular holiday of family and gift-giving, and certainly commercial types will wring every last drop of blood from it, like they do. These days, its significance to Christianity is such a minor thing compared to its significance to all. Thus it's not Christianity-specific anymore, and so its tree ought not be named as such.

Holiday Tree.



Although I understand where you're coming from (a little more than why you have a half naked pubescent girl for your user picture), I have to say, a Christmas tree is still a Christmas tree, even if you call a holiday tree. It shouldn't be repurposed as some sort of catch all early-winter holiday decoration, and I see no reason why a Jewish person would accept it as representive of their holiday anymore than a Christian would accept a menorah as representive of their holiday, even if you called them holiday candles.

In short, if a city is worried about offending it citizens with a Christmas tree, they should just not have one, not try to pass it off as something else.

(edited by emcee on 12-02-05 09:24 PM)
Vystrix Nexoth



 





Since: 11-26-05
From: Cascadia

Last post: 6722 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 10:40 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
Before we begin, I'm an atheist, so not only might it seem unusual that I still stubbornly call it a Christmas tree, I may possibly be missing or incorrect about a few details - if I am, please inform me of this.

Originally posted by Vystrix Nexoth
And as for Christmas, surely they don't mean that its value and worth is contingent on its being placed superior to holidays that aren't Christmas, are they?


Do any other Winter holidays involve decorated trees? None I know of. Yet the tree is supposed to include those... why, exactly?


Otherwise it represents only one religion to the exclusion of others, which is not something that ought happen in an official municipal/government/public capacity.

Of course, if the tree, by any name, is inherently linked to Christianity, then perhaps another course of action that does not place one religion above all others would be to not display the tree in a public place (i.e. with the blessing, if not at the direction, of the government which is supposed to represent everyone, not just Christians) at all. But that would take that symbol of the holiday season away from everyone.

In fact, in Portland Oregon... seeing as the otherwise-cool Lars Larson has spearheaded a movement to, during the week leading up to Christmas, erect a large cross in rented public space in retaliation of Portland's tree being called "Holiday Tree"... assuming this debate does win out in favor of "Christmas Tree", then Portland's got two Christianity-specific symbols in public places, one at the direction of government. "Christmas Tree" I can live with, blatant Christian symbolism in public places I won't.

Though the government of Portland is, in my book, free and clear here: they call the tree "Holiday Tree", and the retaliatory cross is a private rather than public/government venture. So even if the tree is considered inherently-Christmasy, the government doesn't represent it as such and, damn liberal it is, is trying to be inclusive of everyone. That's near about all I can expect of them. But I digress.

Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
For the first one, you're almost right. But, it just so happens that most of us have largely Christian families, and if we're going to set aside one day to family togetherness and gift-giving, it may as well be one that the rest of them already have. Additionally, this does not undermine the significance of the holiday to Christians, and I see it therefore as quite irrelevant - the day is still more important to them than to *insert non-Christian group here*.


No disagreement there. I will point out that I never said it undermines the importance of Christmas to Christians, but that it *does* have significance to non-Christians.

Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
Originally posted by , yep, him again
These days, its significance to Christianity is such a minor thing compared to its significance to all. Thus it's not Christianity-specific anymore, and so its tree ought not be named as such.


Waitwaitwait. You're telling me that because non-Christians may participate in this holiday and businesses may exploit it, it's no longer significant to Christians? Riiight. That makes sense, doesn't it?

Wait, no it doesn't.


Originally posted by ", yep, him again", with emphasis added
These days, its significance to Christianity is such a minor thing compared to its significance to all. Thus it's not Christianity-specific anymore, and so its tree ought not be named as such.


And as an aside, if I can learn the name "Tamarin Calanis", you can learn the name "Vystrix Nexoth", ya?
Thexare

Metal battleaxe
Off to better places








Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6295 days
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Posted on 12-02-05 11:00 PM Link | Quote
Actually, I think you're on the right track with this...

Originally posted by yes, I do know your name, I'm just not used to typing two X's in one sitting
Of course, if the tree, by any name, is inherently linked to Christianity, then perhaps another course of action that does not place one religion above all others would be to not display the tree in a public place (i.e. with the blessing, if not at the direction, of the government which is supposed to represent everyone, not just Christians) at all
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

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Posted on 12-08-05 10:45 PM Link | Quote
It's a fucking SOLSTICE TREE if we're being pedantic. For celebrating the middle of winter.

If Christians get their panties in a knot because their two millenia of co-opting pre-christian pagan festivals isn't enough for them, then fuck 'em. "Holiday Tree" is wrong solely because it's stupid white-bread homogenisation, but these people are absolutely bloody kidding themselves if they think Christmas is, or ever was, exclusively the domain of their particular religion. It's a cultural thing that the Christian religion occasionally tries to pretend it controls. SOLSTICE TREE.

Humanity's been setting things on fire, hanging pretty things up and eating too much in the middle of winter pretty much forever. Christmas is a cultural and retail adaption of that, the religous overtones are, at best, optional and, at worst, utter bloody fantasty. They got his birth year wrong by 6 years, do they really expect us to believe they know his birth DOWN TO THE DAY?

HANDS OFF MY CHRISTMAS WITH YOUR MASS AND YOUR JESUS.

Also: There is a Christmas tree and a nativity scene in every large square in the city of Prague this year. Opinion polls consistently show the Czech Republic to be 80% atheist.

SEE. CHRISTMAS IS CULTURAL, NOT RELIGIOUS. YOU KOOKS.



The first person to point out that in Australia Christmas falls near the summer solstice gets a stab in the face over the internet. The fact that we are a bizzare displaced colonial culture adapting European traditions to a land it totally doesn't fit INVALIDATES NOTHING

(edited by Arwon on 12-08-05 09:48 PM)
emcee

Red Super Koopa


 





Since: 11-20-05

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Posted on 12-09-05 12:46 AM Link | Quote
Christmas means different things to different people. For some its religious, others its completely secular.

I don't think anyone here is claiming Christmas is only celebrated by Christians. The fact that it is a secular holiday as well as a religious one is the very reason it should be called a Christmas tree. Those celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday identify Christmas as a day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Those celebrating it secularly see Christmas as just the name of the holiday, the concept of Christ disassociated from it. But reguardless, of it's orgins hundreds of years ago, or how you celebrate the holiday, a Christmas tree is the symbol for Christmas. Not Kwanza, Hanukkah, the Winter Solstice, New Year's Day, St. Nicholas Day, or Pearl Harbor Day, just Christmas, hence the name: Christmas Tree.

It's stupid to think renaming it will make any difference. Anyone actually offended by it, isn't going to think, "Hey, its a holiday tree now, that means its a symbol for my holiday as well". It has nothing to do with any other holidays, and no matter what you call it, it's still a Christmas tree, no one is going to accept it a symbol for their holiday just because it's called a Holiday Tree. If a town is really worried their tree will offend someone, they should A: take it down, or B: put up a menorah.
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6296 days
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Posted on 12-09-05 01:35 AM Link | Quote
SOLSTICE TREE
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

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Posted on 12-09-05 02:19 AM Link | Quote
How about we call it Tree. Just a proper noun of "tree"...Tree. Christmas Tree is now Tree.
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6296 days
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Posted on 12-09-05 12:01 PM Link | Quote
Trent.
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