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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Gay Fairy Tale... |
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max Blipper  i'm a pixie !!!                  Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6557 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| this might interest some of you http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_3782282 | |||
Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa   Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I may be oversimplifying things, but... what's so wrong about the fairy tale? Last I checked, acknowledging that things exist isn't exactly advocating that kind of behavior. Of course, I suppose there aren't too many fairy tales with black people, or mexicans, or anything... soo... yeah.
Of course, there's nothing quite like the polygamy from Snow White, the suicide in Little Mermaid, and I'm sure there are others... Actually, I could probably try to make a case for the Ginger Bread Man to be dealing with a revolt by the proletariat masses, namely the title character who is meant to be eaten by the upper class (namely, the family). |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon  Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| Morales aren't taught to you.. no matter how much parents, teachers, government officials or preachers want you to think. I don't have the same morales as my parents, or any of my teachers... I have my own. You go out into the world and you experience shit.. and you make your OWN judgements. My parents always told me "don't drink" "don't smoke" "don't have sex".. all that stuff.. they tried hard to teach me what to not do. But no sane child listens. Around the age of like 15 16 or so.. people get curious and decide they want to experience things for themselves and make their own judgements. So, as a rule.. I think one should be exposed to EVERYTHING. My parents censored nothing for me as a child. I was able to watch whatever movies, shows or anything that I wanted. I was allowed to listen to Eminem uncensored back in like 5th grade. Did it have an amazing profound effect on me that damaged my whole life? No.. it didn't. I like to have fun just like the rest of us on planet earth... but that does not make me morale-less.
And what do you say to the children of same gendered parents? My friend buddy (his real name is nick) had two moms his whole entire life. Should he just feel alienated and shunned and ignored and strange his whole life? Is it his fault that he has two moms? Can you choose your parents? No. He loves them both dearly. God forbid we expose two sides of an arguement to children. They all just might grow up to be gay. All of them.. because when they were 7.. their teacher read them a fairytale with homosexual connotations to it. No. That doesn't happen. Not even kind of. (edited by Snow Tomato on 05-08-06 11:06 AM) |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Snow TomatoI disagree. Most adolescents are going to have that phase of rebellion and experimentation, but once you've grown older you'll start to realize how cloesly your own concept of morality matches that of your parents, caregivers, mentors, etc. That's not to say that you'll necessarily share their religious beliefs, or that you'll identically mirror their worldviews, but the influence is unavoidable. And really, I can't bring myself to agreement with your opinion that a parent has no right censoring his child's environment. There's a middle ground between a strict authoritarian parent and an absolutely lenient one and, just as it's not ideal to control your child excessively, so is it counterproductive to set no limits for him whatsoever. As I said, certainly a teenager is inclined to lash out and rebel at some point in his development, but to be a parent at either extreme end of the spectrum will only make the situation worse: a strictly-raised teen will try to spite his parents and at the same time experiment with all manner of things that he's known to be "taboo," while a teen whose parents were absent, either literally or effectively, will have no concept of limits in the first place. There is something to be gained from experiencing the world on your own, but you make it sound like it's a good thing for every child to be allowed to go out there and get pregnant, arrested, alcohol poisoned, drug overdosed, etc, all in the name of "having one's own experiences." Seeing the world for yourself does not mean damaging your own body and mind in the process; not to sound condescending but, as you grow older, you may wish you lived your teenage years differently. |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| You may not agree with that...but it's what I feel.. and it's come from what I've experienced. And can you honestly say that some kid is going to turn out to be homosexual because he heard a fairy tale in like 3rd grade? It's not bead for people to be exposed to different points of veiw. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Snow TomatoAgain, not to sound condescending, but my knowledge of your exploits leads me to place you firmly in the "teenage rebellion" stage. You'll mature a bit, and your point of view will more than likely shift. Originally posted by Snow TomatoI said nothing of the sort. Whether homosexuality is inherited or learned, I cannot say; however, regarding morals in general, it is the sole realm and responsibility of a child's parents or guardians to instill a sense of "right" behavior in that child. Schools are to educate the populace regarding secular matters, while morals - a concern irrevocably tied to religion or at least some sense of higher responsibility - has no place in a public school. Whether or not you or I think sexual orientation is a matter of morality is irrelevant; what matters is that the parents of a seven-year-old kid might think it is and, whether they're right or wrong, it's their privilege to make that call. Just like I have no right to discuss religion in any official capacity as a second grade teacher, so do I not have the right to discuss a hot-button issue like gay marriage. |
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Young Guru Snifit  Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield I'd beg to differ that schools are not responsible for teaching some form of morals. Schools do plenty to teach kids not to steal, not to swear, not to cut in line, and other such good things. I would consider these morals of some sort and it is the schools responsibility to teach children this. The system of laws and regulartions, in any society, is based on morals, and schools are the prime place to educate children in these rules. Also, I do think that reading the fairy tale is not exp |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| You beat me to my point. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Young GuruFind me a parent who's against his children learning not to steal, swear, and cut in line, and the analogy will be valid. Originally posted by Young GuruThe base of the matter is, whether the reality they are being faced with is at all morally questionable, the last call still remains with the parents. Plain and simple. Guardianship allows certain control over how a parent raises his child and, if that parent does not like his child being taught about homosexuality, then a school has no right to step in and say otherwise. You and I both know that there's nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality as a sexual orientation or a lifestyle, but if a certain parent thinks otherwise then he is owed the opportunity to shelter his child from that reality. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter: the crux of the issue is that a school went behind parents' backs to provide certain educational content to young children. Edit because I somehow mixed up two idioms  .(edited by Silvershield on 05-09-06 02:34 AM) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| So, you think that the parents should have the ultimate choice in what the kid learns then?
That's kind of short sighted. You might be helping the parent, but you could be destroying the child.If a parent is racist and doesn't allow for their kid to be taught anything that exp It's the same thing here. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| You know, the idea of foisting morals, as Sky says, onto children could be very easily avoided if the teacher read an equal representation of all forms of marital status in fairy tale form. Gay AND straight tales. Then it's politically motivated, but in a way that presents both situations equally, allowing the child to make their own judgement about the situations...
I mean, you go to school to learn, but don't you also go to school with the idea in mind that you are going to apply what you learn in school to your life once it's over with? So why not be presented with all situations, and just make a judgement based on what you're presented with, just like you do with everything else in school? On another, more personal note, I've never heard a fairy tale about divorce...  |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonAnd who's to decide whether a particular parent's values are good enough to be passed on to his children? Should he only be allowed to teach his child morality that you find tasteful, or that adheres to your sense of right and wrong? We both lose out here, Dracoon. I'd love it if every parent brought his child up with a strong basis in Christian-inspired values - not necessarily in the Christian religion, mind you, but with a sense of what is ultimately Good according to a Judeo-Christian sensibility. You'd prefer that every child is brought up according to your hippy liberal agenda. (I'm being sarcastic, so don't jump down my throat.) Just as it is both impossible and simply wrong for me to make the call concerning what a proper education would entail, so is it wrong for anyone left of center to make that same decision. The best we can do is leave the school as a place of purely objective learning, and hope that a child grows up with enough sense to see past any racist or otherwise irrational beliefs that might have been instilling in him by his parents. You honestly can't contend that certain values - the nature of human life, for example, as it relates to abortion, or the idea of abstinence from pre-marital sex - are necessarily wrong, but that they are simply different from your own opinion. And I don't suppose it's really fair that your stance on abortion, or your stance on pre-marital sex, should be taught to my children. Edit: Originally posted by GreyAs I've said, my major gripe with this whole story is simply the age of the children. Homosexuality should hardly be excluded from schools that serve older kids, but for second graders it's just another unnecessary confusion. Keep it simple, and let the children choose for themselves once they're actually capable of doing so. (edited by Silvershield on 05-09-06 04:03 PM) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by DracoonAnd who's to decide whether a particular parent's values are good enough to be passed on to his children? Should he only be allowed to teach his child morality that you find tasteful, or that adheres to your sense of right and wrong? You're right, but children are still taught dinosaurs exist, some people don't want to believe in dinosaurs. I could understand your point, if this was brought up in any other state, but I feel that legally, the teacher didn't do anything wrong. You'd prefer that every child is brought up according to your hippy liberal agenda. (I'm being sarcastic, so don't jump down my throat.) Good thing that note is there  |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonI can't say whether the teacher violated any sort of law, mainly because I'm not familiar enough with law in general to make that call. But I still think that what she did was reprehensible insomuch as she overstepped her bounds as a teacher and infringed on the rights of a parent. For all I know, the parents of every single child in that classroom might be all for gay marriage, but the teacher is obliged to use the appropriate channels to actually determine that for certain before disseminating those values to young children. Originally posted by DracoonI really don't know how to classify your specific set of beliefs, so I intended that "you" as more of a general pronoun rather than one directed at you personally. Either way, the disclaimer is there, so don't get bent out of shape.Originally posted by Silvershield |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield I think that would matter a LOT more if it wasn't already legal there. The fact that it was means that no matter how much some people may not like it, for the time being it happens. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by SkreenameJoe, a hypothetical parent, is personally opposed to abortion. However, abortion is currently legal. Therefore, Joe must teach his children that abortion is acceptable.Originally posted by Silvershield I disagree. |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by SkreenameJoe, a hypothetical parent, is personally opposed to abortion. However, abortion is currently legal. Therefore, Joe must teach his children that abortion is acceptable.Originally posted by Silvershield You're dragging the issue away from how it actually is. In this case, Joe, the hypothetical parent, has to allow his children to know that abortion happens, whether it's acceptable or not. Or would you prefer that people not know that what they disagree with exists? |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by SkreenameJoe's kids should not be educated in abortion and contraception until they're of an age at which they can both comprehend it and it can actually serve some practical use. No second grader is going to need an abortion, just as no second grader is going to be questioning his own sexuality. There's no need to "know it exists" - in fact, it is perhaps harmful to know - if the children are not of age to approach it with a critical and intelligent eye. Until then, it's just feeding them information that is counterproductive to the development of basic human and intellectual skills that are forming at that age. |
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Young Guru Snifit Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield I remember that the kids at my grade school used to play a game called "smear the queer", basically a form of tag/hot potatoe/tackle each other (it wasn't a bunch of kids going after a homosexual kid, it was just the name of the game, if the name brought up any concern). I can't imagine what a child who thought he was homosexual would be going through taking a part in or hearing people play this game if he knew what the term queer meant, and there were definately some kids that did as well as the kids who use terms like "gay, fag, etc." to demean and insult each other. So basically I think that children in grade school do know about it and there are probably some children who even have a sense of their own sexuality. Originally posted by Silvershield I know a few parents that have stolen in front of their children and acted like it was something special that they did, and parents that swear in front of their children constantly so I think it works pretty well. The difference is that the a large majority of people strongly disagree with theft, etc. whereas it's much closer to fifty-fifty (though not really that close) on the homosexuality. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Young GuruThe kids don't understand the meaning of the words. They know that the words can be used to cut and to cause pain and, for preadolescent boys (and straight into adolescence), that's a main objective in dealing with other male children. Even in high school, "queer" and "fag" are common insults; it's certainly not right, but in most cases it's just a case of the words having lost their meaning and few kids are really all that hateful toward gays. To debase a rival through questioning his masculinity is an effective strategy, but that's not to say that there's some sort of hatred toward gays in general. Originally posted by Young GuruWell, if a parent is so screwed up as to promote swearing and stealing, then that's how he's going to raise his child. It sucks, yeah, but there's no way you can draw the line at what a parent should be able to teach his kids and what he shouldn't. Can I teach my kid that black people are the devil? No, that's not right, so it shouldn't be allowed. How about that homosexuals go against God? Well, that may or may not be right, but it's still counterproductive to raising a fully tolerant person. How about that abortion is wrong? Many people support abortion, so in doing so I might be offending someone else's sensibilities on the matter. You see, no matter how bad of a parent someone is, there's just no way to determine where to draw the line. I don't know what more to say about that. |
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