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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Global Warming? |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom                    Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I don't know if there was already a thread on this, but if so, it's outdated and old. I'm starting a new discussion. Please give all of your thoughts on the subject.
Personally, I believe Global Warming is a bunch of BS. As far as I know, the earth goes through climatic shifts (or cycles), and we only have recorded climate history for the last 110 years. The earth has been around a LOT longer than that. Anyway, have you seen a volcano erupt? There's now way humans could even IMAGINE being able to create that much pollution, ever. All in all, Al Gore's stupid. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES  Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| But the science has progressed that we're able to make the required measurements based on what we can find in the environment and can extrapolate things from literary work about climates. We've only been able to monitor supernovae and understand what they are for a half century, yet does that mean we should dismiss all the research we have?
Oh, yeah, Vyper. Clean up your post quality? Decrying things as BS and stupid negates conversations. Particularly on the opening post of a thread that sets the further tenor. |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| It would make us feel better if we were completely faultless in this matter, but i doubt that we are. Climate shifts on its own, yes, but its also a known fact that green-house gases raise the temperature by holding in the heat of the sun, like a green house does, hence the term green-house gas. It is also a known fact that automobiles as well as many other machines of man put out a vast quantity of green house gases. So, putting 2 and 2 together, man is responisble for at least some of the global warming. Why its happening is important, but the fact that it IS happening is more important. Instead of arguing back and forth over who caused it, we should be working to find a solution to it. | |||
Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
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| Well, I think part of the point of the original point was that, if man is not primarily at fault, if this is a natural phenomenon that has happened before and returned the climate to a stable state once more, then it may be that we don't necessarily need to work against it so hard depending on how much it detriments society to do so. Man may have only a very limited effect, such that it is corrected on its own by far more powerful forces.
I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, I'm just saying that's what the first post seems to suggest to me, and while I don't think you can dismiss it that quickly, it's something to consider that is rarely brought to the table of discussion on this issue. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Two words: Precautionary principle. The problem with greenhouse emissions is there's a lot we don't know precisely, which gives polluters and vested interests large amounts of space to maneuver and push dodgy science.
Blaming volcanos, for example, sounds really good and guilt-alleviating. Volcanos pollute a lot, but they're one-off spikes, not 150 years of sustained emissions. So what do we know? 1) We know that changes in the level of CO2 and equivalent gasses in the air affects the climate dramatically. 2) We know climate shifts occur and aren't a great thing for the prosperity of human civilisation. 3) We know we're reducing the capacity of the planet to absorb these gasses and regulate the level of CO2 and equivalents, by destroying trees and fucking with the algae in the oceans. 4) We know we're producing an ever-increasing quantity of these gasses. 5) We know at some point, too much emissions will be simply too much, and while we don't know the consequences we know they won't be good. Could be warming, or cooling, or one then the other, or some other crazy shift that isn't going to be fun for anyone. What we don't know is largely the specific quantities involved in the "tipping point" and the precise nature of the consequences. So why the fuck, given these things we DO know, do we insist on conducting a massive unsupervised experiment on our only fucking biosphere? The thing that needs to be emphasised here is that we don't need to end greenhouse emissions, not by a long shot. This is because the earth does have a capacity to absobrb a certain amount of gasses. To start with, we need simply to stabilise emissions at a certain level. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Ziff, I mostly wanted opinions of others, as I really don't feel like typing out an entire report on why global warming isn't true. As for saying stupid and BS: uhh, yeah, whatever. I'll do what I can to reduce the amount of rudeness in my posts 
Skydude has the right idea, and it's basically what I mean. This planet has survived much worse than global warming. We're coming out of an ice age, of COURSE it's going to get hotter! Eventually, whether it be decades, centuries, millenia, whatever, we're going to have another ice age. The planet has repeated itself before and I'm pretty sure it's going to again. Anyway, at the bottom of the ocean (pacific) is a massive "ring of fire" made up of hundreds of underwater volcanos. These volcanos are constantly erupting and are presumably the cause of many of the earth's quakes. Basically, my point is that the planet causes way more pollution than man could ever create. Because of that, I think global warming (at least to the extent that Al Gore believes) is just another way to scare humanity, much like terrorism. EDIT: On the Al Gore subject, has anyone seen the trailers for his movie that is coming out? I can't BELIEVE this guy! (edited by Vyper on 04-24-06 10:59 PM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Tell it to Tonga, boy. | |||
Snow Tomato Snap Dragon  Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6317 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| Good, someone needs to bring Global Warming to the forefront of our minds because I believe it is the single most defining issue of our generation. The most threatening and urgent. Go Al Gore.
And just as a sidenote before I rant on and on... even if you don't believe that pollution and greenhouse gasses are causing global warming... it's not like they are helping the planet at all. You don't live in manhattan where there's a smog above the city making it 10 degrees warmer than the surrounding areas.. (and it's an island). I live on Staten Island and you do NOT want to swim in the waters around here. They're bright toxic green in some areas, and it's absolutely disgusting and disturbing. How can you argue that pollution is okay when clearly it is harming the environment? I can tell you volcano's didn't do those things. Now, there is more than enough evidence that suggests that global warming is a result of greenhouse gasses. When I say more than enough.. I say that like every real* scientist under the sun sees the evidence and has concluded that there is a definite link. The global temperature difference between now, and the ice age was only 2º.. in the next 100 years scientists predict that the global temperature will increase by at least 5º-10º... and we should be doing EVERYTHING in our power to stop this. (heard that on air america). There are enough alternate sources of energy... what this basically boils down to is G-R-E-E-D. So yes, we are destroying ourselves and the planet because people are greedy. It infuriates me to think that the president of exxon mobile has the power to do something amazing for the world.. the power to change it so we won't all be in serious jeopardy.. and he won't because he's making a ton of money off of our oil addiction. I propose that we really honestly start making the switch to another form of energy... make it as available as oil.. exxon mobile can even partake in the production of it.. and making it available. It simply has GOT to be done. Of course the earth goes through some climate changes... but my point is... why would we want to try and speed up the process? And why do you favor pollution and destruction? It doesn't make sense. Most people say "Who cares? I'll be dead by then.." and I say "The earth is a gift loaned to you by your children.. take care of it".. And that's what I think. *not scientists hired by exxon mobile or the bush administration. (edited by Snow Tomato on 04-24-06 11:27 PM) |
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beneficii Broom Hatter Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6299 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Too much polarization! (My guess is that the majority of people in this thread took their positions on this matter before they began to look at evidence, but then again you never know.) Yes, humans are having an effect, duh! How much of an effect humans are having however is difficult to quantify and there is much uncertainty about it. There is also uncertainty about the future.
There are models predicting, as Snow Tomato said, a sharp warm-up, but the models can only use so many factors; the problem is that we don't know all the factors involved in this--we could very well set off some sort of balancing mechanism that plunges us into an ice age! There's also an interesting study on methane that was trapped in long-frozen ice being released into the atmosphere from the ice melting, causing a rapid increase of the amount of methane in the atmosphere rapidly warming the planet. They said that was what caused the earth to heat up quite a bit around 200 million years ago or so. I would take that with a grain of salt, as around that time there was a single landmass away from the polar regions called Pangaea, which made it very difficult to accumulate glaciers. Today, in the Northern Hemisphere at least, there is a lot of land up in the polar regions connected right down to the temperate zones. The fact that global warming is increasing snowfall in the polar regions (there is such a thing as being too cold for snow!) is interesting and that may itself be a balancing mechanism against warming. Of course, obviously, there's the Gulf Stream possibly shutting off. I've heard many talk about volcanoes causing global warming through ocean warming from underwater volcanoes and the aboveground volcanoes belching CO2 into the atmosphere. This explanation is interesting, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of proof on it. The proponents of this (such as the guy at http://www.iceagenow.com/) often rely on anecdotal evidence of volcano eruptions and discoveries, which isn't really proof. It seems that they treat every new volcano discovery as evidence that vulcanism is increasing, but that's total BS as discovering new volcanoes doesn't mean that the number of volcanoes is increasing, but only our knowledge. About islands, there are urban heat centers that must be taken into account and also heating seems more pronounced in the arctic and antarctic regions (which is interesting, as it implies a more chaotic mixture of hot and cold  ).
EDIT: Fixed URL Formatting (edited by beneficii on 04-25-06 02:24 PM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| It shouldnt be called "global warming" but "globl climate change". It's more complex than just heating. | |||
Tarale    2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I tend to agree a lot with what Jomb has said already. That humans have to be at least in-part responsible for changes to our environment (including those relating to climate), but not necessarily entirely responsible.
What I believe is then important is that we don't just ignore it and hope it goes away -- but that we try to understand and minimise our impact. Unfortunately with such a complex issue, "understanding" is probably a whole lot easier said than done.  |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Snow, I'll at least agree with you on the smog issue. Ever seen Vegas from the mountains? You don't know smog until you've seen that....
Anyway, I believe that the planet's going to eventually counteract everything we've done. I mean, it's survived for billions of years. What's to say it can't survive for a few more billion? As for the temperature increase, meh. Models are just that: models. Who's to say they're accurate/innacurate? We'll just have to see what happens. |
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NSNick Gohma IF ALL ELSE FAILS USE BOOZE  Since: 11-17-05 From: Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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Originally posted by Snow Tomato This topic, and quote in particular, makes me think of Michael Crichton's book, State of Fear. It follows an environmentally-minded lawyer who discovers that global warming is at best unproven. Although fiction, Crichton backs his story up with documented fact |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6310 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| global warming may be affectable by humans, but I highly doubt we can or ever will do enough to create the cotastrophies that some scientests (and movies) suggest that we can do....
and like someone else has already said.... we're coming out of an ice age.... of course the world is warming up and ice at the polar caps is melting.... that doesn't mean that the world is going out of control and natural disasters are going to kill us all.... step out of hollywood for a minute  |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Of course the planet will survive, thats not in question. What's in question is whether it will continue to be a pleasant place for humans to live.... | |||
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by JombWe'll adapt. It's what we've done for thousands of years. It's not going to change anytime soon. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| You know, it doesn't really matter if we're causing the global warming or the planet it. It threatens our way of life, and we need to keep the balance we have now. Just because you spill a few drops of pop on your counter doesn't mean you shouldn't wipe it up before it gets sticky. | |||
Gavin Cheep-cheep Vandalism is not tolerated Since: 11-17-05 From: IL, USA Last post: 6373 days Last view: 6316 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Seeing as you're not a scientist, nothing you say is in any way relevant. Basically all you are spouting is a bunch of bullshit conjecture. Thanks for wasting my time. |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6310 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Gavin: and you are?
just because we aren't scientists doesn't mean we can't understand the theories and form opinions about issues... I guess if you feel your time is wasted in this thread, then don't read anymore |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6317 days Last view: 6302 days |
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Originally posted by VyperOriginally posted by JombWe'll adapt. It's what we've done for thousands of years. It's not going to change anytime soon. Within the next 100 years the temperate is supposed to increase globally by like 5º-10º. That's pretty soon. How soon can a global climate change occur? Originally posted by Vyper We are a mere spec on the timeline of earth. So the earth has never had to respond to a situation where we were there.. where this exact thing happened. I'm not saying the earth won't survive... but it's very very possible that humans may not survive. |
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