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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Microsofts Bullshit |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places                    Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Rom Maniac: All I've been saying - if you'd just, I dunno, pay attention - is that if they're going to do business in a country they should obey the laws there. (let's not get into any unrelated arguments about that point)
Now, as far as I can tell, that's a simple concept. You go to England, you follow their laws. Go to Canada, follow the laws of Canada. Go to China and logic dictates that you follow their laws whether you like them or not. It's easy to act like you're in some sort of position of moral superiority just because you're arguing against an oppressive government, but the problem comes from when what you say they should do and what simple rational reasoning says they should do are entirely different things. PSA: I'm not arguing that they should or should not do business there. Morally speaking they probably shouldn't, but I'm not arguing about that. But then, I addressed this up in the first sentence of this post. |
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Rom Manic  Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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The point of this topic was that Microsoft provided the Chinese government hardware and software SPECIFICALLY to censor the internet access residents of China have. If it were a simple request for some hardware and software to build the Internet infrastructure in China, then it wouldn't be so bad because, as you all say, people must comply with the laws in place within any country. EDIT: Sorry, it wasn't the whole point of the topic. The document I was looking at was about the censorship, which is what this came from, but I posted my take on the situation. (edited by Rom Manic on 08-30-06 10:08 PM) |
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Rom ManicSo you're saying that it's immoral for a buisness to fill a legitimate order for a hardware/software solution? A product was ordered and paid for, the buisness shipped it. I fail to see how Chinese law is suddenly the problem of an American corperation. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| You seem to have missed the point. Microsoft KNEW what the equipment was for and did it for this exact reason, not just some random business proposal. They designed the software to censor the internet access, for gods sakes. How can you just turn a blind eye to that? | |||
Cynthia Uh-huh. Since: 11-17-05 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| It's either you design the software to conform to the laws of the country you're in or you don't design it at all. Companies might not agree with the policies of the Chinese government, but you can be sure they'll conform to the laws anyways because they'd be fools to pass the market up. | |||
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by ColinAmen to that. Besides, it's not our place to be dictating policy to buisnesses and countries anyway. I still don't see how this is Microsoft's problem. When in Rome, you do as the Romans do. When doing buisness in China, you either follow the Chinese rules or GTFO. That's the way of the world. Everything is never going to fall squarely with in 1 person's narrow view of what's idologically 'correct'. EDIT: Additional food for thought. Let's just say Microsoft out of some idealist basis decides not to operate in China. It doesn't provide the software/hardware/etc. Isn't it better to have some information, albeit censored than to have no information at all? The consequence of a mass of people who are not aware of the outside world would be like North Korea. Would you like china to become a giant nuclear version of North Korea? You need to consider the logical consqeuences of making blanket statements based on blind idealism. (edited by ||bass on 08-31-06 11:06 PM) |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Someone else's comments (Xanodel):
(11:06:12 PM): The basic problem of your arguement is the issue of relative morality. On one hand,it's considered morally wrong to support a government that is not liberal democrat, or built in the US image; on the other hand, it can also be considered morally wrong to deprive people of information of any form. Then you must ask yourself, if you do provide information, does it necessarily have to be of the open, free kind that you see in the US and Europe (and subtle censorship occur in both areas) or does any information trumph no information at all. (11:07:13 PM): The problem is, if Microsoft does not give the hardware and software to China, then who will? If the people lack access, then you are giving a the government a complete iron hand to dictate what people know; on the other hand, if you give access, there is always ways around censorships. (11:08:02 PM): Afterall, have faith in that people in China are not STUPID, and like most Americans, understand that the country has censorship, and each curious individual in their own ways will seek ways around the censorship; people are more resourceful in developing countries than you might think-so give them credit for that. (11:09:41 PM): But back to the arguement at hand; if you do not give them access at all, you can have a larger case of North Korea, where the government controls and restricts everything; and because of some western countries ideals, no one would be willing to provide internet access to the people, so that they can find alternative information somehow. Would you rather that China becomes a giant North Korea equivalent? (11:11:31 PM): If you go with the moral high ground and say, that due to idealistic differences you will not provide services, you're like giving a poor starving man the fish to feed him for a day. But what you can do also is teach the man how to fish. What Microsoft has managed to do by providing some access, despite censorship, is teaching people how to fish for information. And that is probably the better solution. Also: To Rom Maniac, she wants to know if you've ever actually been to China. She's used the net there and has never run into any real censorship issues. No problem accessing NYTimes, etc. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by ||bass You know...It pretty much is. It keeps people in terrible poverty to use them as a work force. It brutally represses most religions. It is not a good nation. Its marketplace and areas of freedom are for a limited few and it is going to try to keep it that way. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| 3 things:
1) Being acceptable by business standards doesn't mean it's right. 2) My view on things is plain and simple: Right, or wrong. Black, or white. 3) Why do you continue to justify microsoft by saying that giving china internet technology is ok when you have already experienced it IN China?
The capitalism mill runs strong. Poor underachievers...They tried to find the backdoor, but too bad for their imcompetence. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Plus, people underestimate the Chinese too much. The Great Firewall of China could have easily been constructed by the PRC with indiginous technology.
I don't know. Its nothing wrong, in a business sense, dealing with a repressive regime. But it still causes me to be bothered. I guess being raised Catholic has led me to have a sense of global social justice. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Rom ManicBifurcation is both a logical fallacy and a childlike viewpoint that inherently causes more problems than it solves due to the fact that it leaves no room for compromise and leads to extremist polarization which almost never yields any real results. As for the other non-registered commentator: (1:35:57 AM): Okay, so China is repressive (1:36:10 AM): that's not the issue (1:36:33 AM): the issue is, are you okay with granting the monopoly of information to that one source, just so you can presevere your moral high ground? My (||bass) interpretation of the above: China already has state-run internet access. So basically you're arguing that rather than allow MS to offer it's own information service as a legally-complient alternative, you would prefer to allow the state-run ISP to have a total monopoly on information. How exactally does that help the situation? More commentary from outside: (1:39:56 AM): I didn't have problem accessing my sites while in china (1:40:05 AM): so I didn't worry too much (1:40:06 AM): besides (1:40:18 AM): most americans aren't aware how much censorship there is in the US (1:40:23 AM): if Iraq is any case in point Final comments actually addressed to me, not the forum, though I still feel like posting them: (1:42:06 AM): it's idoitic thinking like his (1:42:28 AM): which only considers his own perspective without thinking about the perspective of the other side that creates most of the problems US deals with (1:42:45 AM): I mean thanks to us, we have Chavez in Venezuela right now (edited by ||bass on 09-01-06 01:44 AM) |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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| If you're going to rant about anything like this, rant about Google. I love Google, but not censoring search results would've been an awesome way to motivate the Chinese government to either block Google and have groups protest, or consider less censoring. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Well, the Great Firewall is pretty easy to get around. Set up a proxy server and BOOM free internet access. It is pretty hard to control the computers of x million people all at once. I believe that the Information Control Office or whatever it is called now employs something like 4000 people to keep this travesty running.
Then again, as far as it goes, Chavez isn't that bad ||bass. At least he isn't doing anything like Pinochet or the other dictators of the region. He's just trying to protect himself from a very real threat. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationI didn't say he was. In fact I didn't say anything about him at all. I thought it was pretty obvious that the timestamped comments were somebody elses. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Oh, I was aware. I just figured that since you interjected with those points (not yours) it seemed appropriate to address that statement to you. | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6296 days |
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| Microsoft has achieved great things, but it has made a lot of b.s. in the last years. The only good ideas they ever have are the ones they steal from Apple. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Microsofts Bullshit |
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