 |
| Register | Login | |||||
 |
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| Calendar
| Chat
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | ACS | Stats | Color Chart | Search | Photo album |
|
| | ||
|
| Register | Login | |||||
|
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| Calendar
| Chat
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | ACS | Stats | Color Chart | Search | Photo album |
|
| | ||
| 0 users currently in World Affairs/Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Censorship in China |
New poll |  |  |
| Add to favorites | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| User | Post | ||
Skydude Armos Knight                     Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
| ||
| So I'm sure most of you are probably aware of the debaucle Google has been facing these past few months after it agreed to censor searches based on criteria set forth by the Chinese government, in order to achieve market presence previously prohibited by the government there.
I think this is just really awful on Google's part. I think they could have stood up to pressure to censor and still been able to get into the Chinese market, simply because the Chinese government knows just how great Google is, and how much it would be losing out by not allowing it, even without censorship. This was just an easier way to make profits. I'm...actually not sure what the current status of it is, if anything's changed, as I haven't really seen it in the news since it happened initially. Thoughts? |
|||
Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
| ||
| That'd be a resounding meh.
The Chinese government sucks. What are you gonna do? |
|||
Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| I don't know much about the issue, but my impression of Google has always been one of the common man's success, an independent entrepreneur making it big. For Google to "forget its roots," so to speak, by snatching up profits without attention paid to an ethical obligation, is a little disappointing. | |||
|
Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| Was it the American head office that made this choice...or did they spin off into China already? I mean, the Chinese government is really crafty when it comes to getting what it wants. If they spun off then perhaps it isn't this giant ethical battle as people see it as. Plus, Google isn't completely ethically bankrupt. At least they stood up to Bush and such and refused to relinquish the searches! | |||
|
Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
| ||
| Maybe Google knows its censorship could never be 100% effective and figures getting SOME search-freedom into China is better than NONE. | |||
Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| Never fear, my children. As usual, Cryptome has come around to save the day. It's the only place I would ever go to read news, besides the BBC online, but that part of the site is exclusively publishing documents and such banned by the chinese government. Fairly interesting stuff, worth a look if this topic interests you.
Main site link |
|||
Hawksun Red Koopa  Since: 04-06-06 From: Canada Last post: 6517 days Last view: 6517 days |
| ||
| While I think this is far from being Google's greatest move ever, I'd put more of the blame on China than on Google. Since a company/corporation/whatever (in this case, Google) needs to make a profit I think it was understandable that it sought to expand it's user base even though it meant complying with rigorous anti-freedom of speech censorship laws. As for the point about chinese government knowing how great google is: while the government may know how great it is, do the chinese PEOPLE even know how great it can/could be? It's not like China is letting a lot of information come to the masses from the outside world (or even sometimes China itself). The People's Republic of China should change it's legislation (or it's whole government) rather than Google changing it's business practices. [/Rant] | |||
|
Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| I'm fairly certain that it would be impossible to change China's practices before you change Google's.
And although it is the responsibility of a company to return profits it doesn't excuse unethical behaviour. |
|||
|
Hawksun Red Koopa Since: 04-06-06 From: Canada Last post: 6517 days Last view: 6517 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination I am well aware that changing Google's practices would be much more simpler than changing chose those of China's. It's just that in my opinion Google is not that much at fault. As for the unethical behavior part, Google complied with China's law, period. Those laws (or regulations, or whatever other administrative term this is, I forgot) as unjusts and unethicals as they are must be followed (there are limits, I admit. Don't want to look like a law fascist here). By simply following laws of another country, I don't see how Google was unethical (then we probably don't have the same exact definition of ethics, so agreeing may be problematic) Of course, the best thing would still have been Google's un-cooperation with the PRC's severe limitations and just making the damn thing available at all. If this sounded harsh or if I did offend anyone by what I just wrote, it was not in my intention at all. I'm just posting an opinion. Don't hate me.  |
|||
|
Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| I would like to point out that Microsoft has a MASSIVE role in the chinese censorship. They provide the servers, the software, and alot of the technology which is used by Chinese ISP's to filter out whatever the Chinese government wants.
Microsofts role in global affairs are only going from here, I think...Fuck them, anyway. Go Linux, people! |
|||
|
Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
| ||
| Eh, I really never got the whole "Microsoft is evil" thing...they're successful in business, jeez, how is that a crime? It's fair competition.
As for Google, I'm not saying they're at fault for China's policies...my point was that they have the opportunity to do something really positive...and they're not doing it. They're compromising their own stated morals for profit. |
|||
|
||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| I don't really see how this is so much of Google's problem. As a company, if they wish to do buisness in China, they have to do it according to Chinese law, just like anyone else would in any other country.
Remember, Google is a publically traded company now. They can't afford to be hopeless idealists. They now have a RESPONSIBILITY to the shareholders to make a profit. |
|||
Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
| ||
| Personally, I'm of the opinion that some access to independent (albeit censored) search in China is a good thing. It gives the Chinese people a greater access to information than Government-created Search Engines, whilst still complying with the government's wishes.
It also clearly labels what is censored, which is a good thing. It could just censor stuff without even saying so..... that would be worse IMHO. I think Google are doing a service to the Chinese people. Yes, they have had to play by the government's rules in order to do so, but better access to information for the Chinese is only a good thing. Oh, and I think they've changed their name in China too.  I forget what it is, but I think it means something like "harvest". |
|||
Tanooki Hero Goomba  Since: 05-17-06 From: NY Last post: 6561 days Last view: 6561 days |
| ||
| info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_mainland_China I love wiki. I dont see why more american's dont feel offended by this, it's very much so in conflict with american values. it's defnatly NOT a very public issue. Americans impose there values on other nations(particularly our enemies in the war on terror). I think china's political relationship with the US is under represented in the news lately. Is anyone else aware that a war with china may be in the near future because of Taiwan's teetering status? I'm not saying antying about who's right or wrong in this case, I'm just saying these are important issues that aren't publicized nearly enough. |
|||
|
Ziff Newcomer Since: 05-22-06 Last post: 6567 days Last view: 6567 days |
| ||
| The Chinese aren't Americans. That's why. Universality is not completely applicable, especially when extended beyond Western cultures. Your conception of human rights is an Anglo-American concoction that makes little sense to someone with limited exposure. It is completely secular (although highly religious) in its nature. It, as Michael Ignatieff notes, becomes a form of worship. Although he does say that "Relativism is the inevitable alabi of tyranny" it should be said that your application of your perspective on the rights of the matter is fundamentally twisted. Americans, and people of Western European heritage, too highly value a pillar of sand upon which they cannot stand.
As towards your assessment of the Taiwan issue...It makes little sense. There are many contested regions around the world. China is smart enough, particularly with the United States new military deals with India, to not make such a foolish move. The United States consistent interference in Central Asian politics has allowed it to have military bases in nations bordering China to the North and West. China sits in an Iron Ring. All around it are potentially hostile points of attack. Mind you, the United States ought to be smart enough to understand that China is pretty much untouchable and defends itself perfectly from all attack without batting an eyelash. It has perfect economic warfare methods at its disposal. Mind you, if military action were sanctioned the Chinese have a lovely target sitting on the otherside of the seas. Again, it is primarily economic and striking out at this target would be beneficial to Chinese standings. This benefit is emphasized most strongly in the event of modern Total War. Especially when the concept of the Mega Death applies. Needless to say your assessment of a sort of coming war is a classical depiction of millenarists and their moronic assumptions of war. There is next to no feasible scenarion in which China becomes so irate and irrational as to strike out, nor is the world stupid enough to strike a sleeping giant. Mind you, again, there is a LOT of publicity floating around in the world media with regards to Sino-American relationships. Mind you, the average American news magazine is slanted more towards yellow journalism rather than reporting hard hitting facts. Those that do report on such issues are often academic in nature and have lower circulation. |
|||
|
Tanooki Hero Goomba Since: 05-17-06 From: NY Last post: 6561 days Last view: 6561 days |
| ||
| I am aware that American values aren't universal, I agree with you entirely. My point is that we are peculiarly selective on which nations we try to impose those values on, like you said china is untouchable, there not going to bullied around like other nations we try to impose democracy on. Yet when we do try to impose values, we tend to do so with a sense of rightousness.
As far the Taiwan issue, I think you should read up on it more, and if you feel you have read enough about I think you need to do a little more to persuade me to agree with you at least. Im not alone in my sentiment, the United States has declared it will side with Taiwan if China takes military action against Taiwan first and China has stated under which conditions it will take military action. So when you say "next to no feasible scenario" China has already declared exactly what that scenario is. While this may not seem like realistic fear to you, many people do take this possibility seriously, or at least that is impression I have gotten from many of my chinese/twainese friends. Also the "economic" methods I've heard proposed are very harsh. Particulary, I've heard that China has the cabaplity of totaly cutting off Taiwan's electrical power, and that they are considering using this. I'm not saying we should panic about it, but that is a possibility, your response however seems to deem this scenario as totatly unrealistic on the grounds that such a war would be terribly devasting to both parties. I'm still open to be swayed though mind, you simple haven't said enough yet to change my opinion on this subject, I admit my sources for information on this subject aren't the best, so please, educate me. |
|||
|
Ziff Newcomer Since: 05-22-06 Last post: 6567 days Last view: 6567 days |
| ||
| The historical reasons for siding with Taiwan are extremely complex, though. Of course, you're showing us the usual face of fear-mongering that the media forces onto the public. China's not going to do anything to Taiwan. If they were going to do something, they would've done it long ago. It may be a thorn in their side, but the more immediate threat are US bases in Azerbaijain and Afghanistan, new military treaties with India, a Japan that may soon have an offensively minded military...Why worry about Taiwan? Internal meddling with their affairs is enough. China will support groups within Taiwan to meet its own end of the "one China" policy. Psychological warfare is far more cost effective than conventional or other forms of warfare. There will not be war with China.
The devestation, as mentioned, would be mind-boggling. These are two superpowered states duking it out. We've never even seen what could happen in this scenario. Frankly, I don't think we we want to, either. And again, even if Beijing managed to get Taipei...I don't think the Americans are going to directly interefere on this stage. It'd be a headache and a lot of buckets of blood. A treaty is only a piece of paper. Plus, Beijing and the CCP know that military intervention into Taiwan is dunderheaded. They'll us my afforementioned means to gain their own ends. Sorry for babbling, I've been absorbed in my other studies. |
|||
Crashman Grizzo  Since: 12-26-05 From: Maine Last post: 6333 days Last view: 6333 days |
| ||
| I always thought kind of interestingt he way that teh Chinese government is fairly conservative, not unlike the French who have a laguage police to monitore and controll teh shape and change of their language. China simply chooses to do teh same with their entire culture. And if you control the information, you control the thoughts shaped from it.... |
| Add to favorites | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Censorship in China |
| |
