Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive -- World Affairs/Debate: Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex

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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex

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Arwon

Bazu

Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days

Posted on 04-30-06 01:27 AM

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There ya go man, now we're getting somewhere. Don't shy away from that intuitive leap... it's the entire basis for most people's abortion position. You've just demonstrated that you understand that the potentiality of life doesn't have the same value at all points of pregnancy. This is an entirely intiutive and common sense that what's ok at conception is not okay at 8 months. Life--or rather, the potentiality of human life--isn't equal at all stages of pregnancy.

There's two conflicting rights, you see, the right of the mother to control her own life and body, and the right of the potential life of the fetus. These two rights are in conflict, so they must be balanced, but they don't balance the same at all points. This is for entirely those intuitive and common sense reasons, that a clump of cells that may or may not survive is not equal to a late-term fetus.

It makes sense that it's okay to do something to a fetus at 2 months that isn't okay at 8 months, because while it's not a baby, the later in the term you get, the more baby-like it gets, and its life potentiality increases. This is why the sensible position is "abortions allowed without question for the first semester and then some" but not afterwards, depending on circumstances.

Silvershield

580

Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6308 days
Last view: 6295 days

Posted on 04-30-06 01:39 AM

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Originally posted by Arwon
There ya go man, now we're getting somewhere. Don't shy away from that intuitive leap... it's the entire basis for most people's abortion position. You've just demonstrated that you understand that the potentiality of life doesn't have the same value at all points of pregnancy. This is an entirely intiutive and common sense that what's ok at conception is not okay at 8 months. Life--or rather, the potentiality of human life--isn't equal at all stages of pregnancy.

No, don't take what I said for something it isn't. My choice was arbitrary, influenced only by the emotional stimulus of a being that visually resembles my own species - the fetus - as opposed to the being that does not look like a human - the zygote. It was an emotion-based decision, and it doesn't change my opinion that a zygote and a fetus are of equal value.

Originally posted by Arwon
There's two conflicting rights, you see, the right of the mother to control her own life and body, and the right of the potential life of the fetus. These two rights are in conflict, so they must be balanced, but they don't balance the same at all points. This is for entirely those intuitive and common sense reasons, that a clump of cells that may or may not survive is not equal to a late-term fetus.

We're jumping back to themes that were addressed five pages earlier in this thread. The mother is controlling her own life and body when she chooses to have sex. When she chooses to have an abortion, she is controlling her child's life and body.

Originally posted by Arwon
It makes sense that it's okay to do something to a fetus at 2 months that isn't okay at 8 months, because while it's not a baby, the later in the term you get, the more baby-like it gets, and its life potentiality increases. This is why the sensible position is "abortions allowed without question for the first semester and then some" but not afterwards, depending on circumstances.

I stand by my old position. I might as well alter my choice in your hypothetical situation, saying I would rather preserve the zygote than the fetus, but I find little gain in choosing one over the other so I chose the fetus so that it wouldn't seem as if I was trying to spite you.

Skydude

Armos Knight

Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6569 days
Last view: 6569 days

Posted on 04-30-06 01:55 AM

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The other thing that must be noted about protection of life is that of the value of different parts of life. Protection of life supercedes protection of convenience, in this case. If a woman must die so her child can live, then it becomes a matter of equality, in which case saving one or the other would be an acceptable, though disappointing, moral choice.

Speaking of choosing one over the other, I don't see how SS's choice showed that one had greater value than the other. He expressed what he would do if he were forced to make a choice. When you have to make a choice and there is no difference in value, then emotions may rule. However, what your emotions tell you shouldn't be used as a substitute for real thought on the issue. After all, if what is argued that makes man special is the ability to rise above instinct and do other things (Which some in this topic have claimed to some extent, and I'm not sure how much you agree on that), perhaps even less should we trust in these instinctual judgments.

And another thing as for control of her own body...just curious, I'm not trying to attack...so then you would support prostitution, provided the woman chooses to partake in it herself rather than being forced into it?

Arwon

Bazu

Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days

Posted on 04-30-06 08:26 AM

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I'm arguing that the emotional/intuitive response is entirely valid, and using it to illustrate that the value isn't equal. Emotions, gut instincts, feelings, these things count. As it gets more baby-like, for most of us, it gets more valuable, and that's how it should be.

Skydude: Yes, prostitution is legal in most states here and that's how it should be. Much better for the sex-workers than persecuting and marginalising them.

(edited by Arwon on 04-30-06 07:28 AM)

Silvershield

580

Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6308 days
Last view: 6295 days

Posted on 04-30-06 03:10 PM

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Originally posted by Arwon
I'm arguing that the emotional/intuitive response is entirely valid, and using it to illustrate that the value isn't equal. Emotions, gut instincts, feelings, these things count. As it gets more baby-like, for most of us, it gets more valuable, and that's how it should be.

In a discussion that can be argued purely through non-emotional rhetoric, emotion has no valid place. If I were to state that the zygote has a soul, and thus it's worth preserving, that argument is emotion-based, cannot be proven, and has no place in a thread that's devoted to an actual back-and-forth discussion.

Skydude

Armos Knight

Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6569 days
Last view: 6569 days

Posted on 04-30-06 03:49 PM

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I have to admit to being surprised about your stance on prostitution. I have to disagree on it, but I must admit, I find it to be remarkably consistent, which is something that most people with your position on abortion tend not to be.

Snow Tomato

Snap Dragon

Since: 12-31-05
From: NYC

Last post: 6316 days
Last view: 6301 days

Posted on 04-30-06 09:41 PM

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How about before their were legal abortions.. women were shoving hangars up themselves.. killing themselves and their babies? That shit is going to happen again if you outlaw abortions. And you'll have people doing under the table stuff. Alot of people.

And I too believe that prostitution should be legal. You can go out there and be a prostitute now.. and it's not legal. They might as well just be able to perform their job without being arrested for it... it's always contantly going to happen. It's her choice. It may not be a good one... but people are going to make that choice regardless of the law. It's not like legalizing it is going to make it more attractive. If it were legal.. I still wouldn't want to be a prostitute.

mattp

Red Paratroopa

Since: 03-04-06

Last post: 6560 days
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Posted on 04-30-06 10:18 PM

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Abortion won't stop if it is made illegal. The rich will go to Canada to have it done, the middle class will go to Mexico, and the poor will go to the back alleys.

Arwon

Bazu

Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days

Posted on 04-30-06 10:19 PM

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Sky: Really?

First I don't see how prostitution relates to abortion in any meaningful way. I guess the womens rights thread, but it's pretty tenuous. Haha, are you saying I am a feminist? Or a libertarian? Don't make the mistake of attributing or expecting too much theoretical consistancy from me... I'm a contextualist and I have little time for over-arching philosophical or theoretical frameworks. They're constricting and they deny the value of subjective judgements about individual cases and issues.

Second, I don't meet many people who actually think prostitution should be illegal, because I always thought it was just so blatantly obvious that such laws are ineffective, and really harmful to the women involved as it keeps them marginalised and vulnerable and harder to reach with protection and support services. Don't get me wrong, we still have problems here, but a lot of that is to do with the dodgy way the regulations regarding brothels and street-walking tend to work.

Anyways, your question surprised me. I guess I keep forgetting that it's illegal in America-land.

Silvershield: Oh shit, you've gone all meta, which means now the penalty is you have to PROVE THE PRIMACY OF LOGIC IN DISCOURSE!!!

This is of course to say nothing of the huge assumptions your so-called "logic" rests on. What you're actually doing is passing off your own emotional gut instincts as cold logic. That's what virtually EVERYONE in debates like this does.

(edited by Arwon on 04-30-06 09:23 PM)

Skydude

Armos Knight

Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6569 days
Last view: 6569 days

Posted on 04-30-06 11:29 PM

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Originally posted by Snow Tomato
How about before their were legal abortions.. women were shoving hangars up themselves.. killing themselves and their babies? That shit is going to happen again if you outlaw abortions. And you'll have people doing under the table stuff. Alot of people.

How about how more women die from legal abortions than ever died from illegal abortions? Even according to the attorneys who brought forth Roe v Wade and subsequent cases, they GROSSLY inflated the numbers. And in fact, even before, not all of those illegal abortions were "back-alley" ones as is overly publicized by the industry. Physicians before had to be extremely careful, since if they DID injure the woman, it wasn't just that problem itself, but also the problem of an illegal procedure. Now, when something goes wrong, as it does far more often than you seem to think, there isn't as much of a problem, with legal waivers and the like, leading to a lot of problems, both fatal and otherwise.

And I've never understood the "people will do it, so make it legal" argument in general. If you apply it to anything outside of the extremely narrow cases in which people argue it, they say "but that doesn't count!" and I ask "why?" It really seems like they want to apply it only in these very specific circumstances.

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