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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex |
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Silvershield   580                  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Enlighten me, Ziff, because I don't have ready access to the Canon. | |||
emcee Red Super Koopa    Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by emceeOuch. Brilliant argument you've posed there. I didn't pose any argument as to why both those ideas are wrong. I've already said why I thought the first one was wrong in the other thread about abortion, and there is no need to agrue against the second point since no one has actually made it. I was simply saying, if you think someone's arguement is flawed, then say why its flawed. Don't make up new arguments, and argue against them. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by emceeOuch. Brilliant misreading I've done there. Though, admittedly, your comment could've been phrased a bit less ambiguously. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield Yeah, it always makes more sense in my head. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield Saint Raymond of Penafort, On Marriage. From his Summa de paenitentia. Dated in 1234. Ultimately it may have fallen out of Canon as Vatican II came in. Suffice to say, conjugal debt blows your women's rights statement out of the water if it is being validated from a Catholic position. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| You're going to have to be more specific than that, at least to the point of defining "conjugal debt."
Edit, after looking up "conjugal debt": (Just for the record, I understand the term to refer to the Catholic stance that a woman is obligated to provide sex on demand to her husband. [The husband is likewise obligated, but that is currently irrelevant.]) If a woman doesn't want to become pregnant, and we go by the strict Catholic stance pertaining to this "conjugal debt" (that I've never heard of before because, as you point out, it may be a defunct notion post-Vatican II) and also by the similarly Catholic anti-contraception ideal, then her choice is whether or not she wants to get married in the first place. As it is though, it's something of a non-issue. A vast majority of abortions occur out of wedlock. (edited by Silvershield on 04-21-06 02:59 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| "It is a woman's undeniable right to abstain from sexual intercourse. It is not her right to have her cake and eat it too, so to speak: she's involved herself in the act willingly, and must bear the consequences that she was so fully aware of beforehand."
Hah, there it is. Just as I claimed in the opening post. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon  I just want to know if Men are allowed the right to have their cake and eat it too.
Wouldn't surprise me. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonIt's not a consequence that comes as punishment, it's a consequence that results from the natural order of the world and of biology. You're taking "consequence" to mean punishment, and it's not. Originally posted by TaraleIn the modern West, child support and similar legislation means that a man pays the price just as dearly as a woman does, though it's a material rather than physical price. There is no naturally enforced means of "punishing" - that is, enacting consequences - on the male, but society has created an artificial yet reasonable substitute. Edit because, when I respond just after waking up, I tend to say silly things. (edited by Silvershield on 04-21-06 12:30 PM) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Money is easy and is in no way hard to obtain for pleanty of people in America.
Child support is nothing compared to costs of raising a child. A few months of pain + one hellish time of pain (if they don't have a C-section) =/= the cost of child support. Some people fear pain, a lot. And if you're forced to do something you don't want to do, it can be considered a punishment in your mind, don't force your beliefs on others, etc etc, people have said it enough. Honestly, if I had a choice of whether to get aborted or be born, I'd choose abortion, because then I wouldn't have to worry about life at all :3 I wouldn't be capable of worrying. |
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Tangentially Relevant (from Waiter Rant):
“Did I ever tell you about the time my godfather spoke at an anti abortion rally?” I ask. “He was a priest wasn’t he?” “Yeah.” “What did he say?” Beth asks. “Well, it was an ecumenical rally and people were really whipped into a fire and brimstone frenzy,” I say, remembering. “You know, these loose women are sinners, they’re going to hell, etcetera.” “Man,” Beth breathes. “So it’s my godfather’s turn to speak…………..” …..and shuffling into the pulpit, resplendent in his Byzantine vestments, my godfather looks over the top of his glasses upon the congregation. “I have heard many of you talking today about God’s punishment, His wrath. How you’re good Christians because you hate abortion. But, after listening to the people gathered here, I can’t help but notice that some of you harbor a vituperative attitude towards the very women you want to help.” People start shifting in their seats uncomfortably. “I know many of you, like me, are here because you want to defend the unborn. Some of you are motivated by the deepest conviction.” Another pause. “But some of you are here because you love to hate.” Shocked silence. “Are you here because you really want to help the unborn?” my godfather asks. “Have you taken an unwed mother into your home? Fed her? Cared for her baby? Or are you here because this is where your friends are? Are you here to indulge in a comforting sense of moral superiority? Smug in your certitude you’re not going to hell?” Everyone is listening now. “Let me tell you something about Hell,” my godfather says, “We know there’s a hell because Jesus said there’s one. But we don’t know if anyone’s actually in it.” My godfather lets that thought sink in. “What’s more,” he says, “Jesus never liked hypocrites. He once said, ‘They do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but will they lift a finger to move them? No! Every thing they do is done to attract attention!’” Now some of the congregants look angry. “Let me ask you something. Are you relieving these women of their burdens? Or are you adding to them with your self righteousness? Are you helping or hurting? Because if all of your fervor is directed towards feeling good about yourself, if it’s about getting attention, if its about how you’re better than someone else - YOU ARE WASTING GOD’S TIME!” A couple of people get up to leave. Undaunted my godfather continues. “The Lord has never been welcome in the house of the righteous and the certain. Instead He walks amidst the damaged and the confused. To Him, the one that is lost is a treasure beyond price. Who are we to judge these women? They are precious treasure. Love, not hatred, is what they need.” His words reverberate through the church. People are staring at the floor. Some shake their heads in disagreement. Others look thoughtful. “Remember, the mercy of God is radical and boundless,” my godfather says, “And I thank God everyday that He is more merciful than you or I will ever be.” My Godfather steps down from the pulpit. I don’t think he was invited back the next year. ….. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonNot for the typical unwed father. Abortion is far more common for a mother who is not married and of lower socio-economic status, and her child's father is similarly disadvantaged. Originally posted by DracoonChild support is a significant sum. Wikipedia goes so far as to suggest that it often goes unpaid in part or full by the father simply because it is beyond his financial means to contribute the amount the court has determined. Originally posted by DracoonA few months of pain + one hellish time of pain ~ 18 years of crippling financial obligations. Well, depending on how highly you value each, I suppose. And, until you find some way to get the father to take physical part in the childbirthing process, you'd best settle for what we have now. Originally posted by DracoonAnd some people fear going absolutely broke or having various licenses revoked after paying the court's sum or being absolutely unable to, respectively. Originally posted by DracoonOf course the mother doesn't want to give birth to her child, and certainly the father doesn't want to be forced to contribute money to it, and, if were as simple as the feelings of those two parties, it would be totally fair to avoid a circumstance in which each is forced to go against his or her will. But, since the life of the unborn child is added to the equation, the convenience of the mother and father need to be forfeited, because a human life always takes precedence over another human's convenience. Originally posted by DracoonWell, I think most people, including myself, would choose life. For obvious reasons. Originally posted by TommathyI'm not exactly financially nor practically capable of taking an unwed mother into my home. I mean, I kinda live in a college dorm. So it's not an option. I'm a bit offended that you seem to imply that my disgust at an act that I classify as murder is somehow equal to my baseless hatred for unwed mothers as a whole. I certainly disdain their act in cases where they opt for abortion instead of carrying a child to term, and that disgust with abortion may be interpreted as hatred for the person, but it's all I can do to compel myself to love the sinner and hate the sin. It's not easy, going against my natural motivations as a human being, but I think I'm fairly good at separating a person from the act he's committed. And, I have the utmost respect for a single mother who is struggling to raise her child or children - it's undoubtedly a difficult, frustrating, seemingly fruitless endeavor, and I can do nothing but sympathize in that case. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Time is greater than any form of money, how much chairty work have you put in to help unwed pregnant women? | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonI'm sure many unwed fathers would rather have custody of their children and be the primary caretaker rather than contribute a large sum of money until the children are eighteen, but most courts award custody to the mother. Originally posted by DracoonI'm not sure how this is relevant but, for the record, any such work I've done has been to aid the homeless and starving through food drives and similar events. It's a personal sacrifice and not a matter of some sort of obligation. Are you saying that I had some role in fathering that mother's child and that I have a responsibility to help her raise it? I'd consider myself a fairly good person, and I contribute to charity when I'm able, but I don't see why it's been brought up. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Silvershield, why do you break everything down like they're seperate points?
Hint: They aren't. They're one point as a whole. |
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Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6568 days Last view: 6568 days |
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| And for my own part, I feel I should note that I schedule time when I can, as does the Pro-Life group I'm involved with at Stanford, to go to Heritage Home and New Creation Home, area organizations which work with young mothers in need of help, and the group has also organized a "community baby shower" to gather necessities for campus mothers. There is a big difference between anti-abortion and really Pro-Life, as the story demonstrates, but I hardly think giving ALL of one's time/energy/money is necessary to be sending a consistent message. But some, yes. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonBecause I take the effort to make it a bit more convenient for people to understand what I'm trying to say. Originally posted by DracoonThat doesn't change anything. You seem to be of the opinion that, since I do not personally devote every spare moment of my time to assisting unwed mothers, I have no right to argue against abortion. That sounds like kind of a stretch to me. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I never even implied that you needed to put all your time into it.
Just a few hours a month is pretty good if you ask me. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonAt this point in my life, it's not only impractical but effectively impossible. As I said, my living conditions aren't exactly conducive to much of a life outside campus. But, even if it were practical to devote my time to such a cause, I still wonder why it is relevant to the discussion at hand. We're not arguing my personal morals here, we're arguing the various intricacies of abortion and its related issues. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| No, we're arguing opinions. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex |
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